Dear Jonas,
thank you very much. I like your changes and a can agree to them as well.
Best regards,
Kathrin
Von: Heitto, Jonas (Jonas) [mailto:jonas.heitto at alcatel-lucent.com]
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 4. August 2011 10:56
An: Suzanne Erez
Cc: Schweppe, Kathrin; LUIS GARCIA GARCIA; fiware-legal at lists.fi-ware.eu; fiware-legal-bounces at lists.fi-ware.eu
Betreff: RE: AW: [Fiware-legal] Consortium Agreement FI-WARE / Generic Enabler Specs
Susanne,
While I would prefer to re-write the entire section, I understand the complications this would cause. Therefore I think your suggestion of a disclaimer is a good solution. I would just slightly reword as follows, added words underlined. I think the expression "covered" was not helping since all implementations would be covered by the spec.
HOWEVER, NOT WITHSTANDING THE ABOVE, PARTIES ARE NOT BARRED FROM REQUESTING ROYALTIES, OR PROTECTING
THEIR RIGHTS, FOR USE OF TECHNOLOGY (INCLUDING PATENTABLE INVENTIONS) NOT DISCLOSED BY THE FIWARE GENERIC
ENABLER SPECIFICATION.
I hope that the parties seconding Suzanne's original disclaimer can also find this here satisfacory.
I am still looking for the Commission's RF licensing requirement. GA Annex 1 mentioned GE Specs twice (p. 30 and p. 240) but no mention of royalty free, only "Open Specifications".
Regards
Jonas
-----Original Message-----
From: Suzanne Erez [mailto:SUZANNE at il.ibm.com]
Sent: Donnerstag, 4. August 2011 06:57
To: Heitto, Jonas (Jonas)
Cc: Schweppe, Kathrin; LUIS GARCIA GARCIA; fiware-legal at lists.fi-ware.eu; fiware-legal-bounces at lists.fi-ware.eu
Subject: Re: AW: [Fiware-legal] Consortium Agreement FI-WARE / Generic Enabler Specs
Jonas,
Ah ha, I think I understand. You are saying that while the specs
themselves may not cover patentable material, the implementation once
created - may have material IN ADDITION to the specification, and that may
cover Background patents.
So I as the implementer does not need to pay for implementing the bare
specification, but if my implementation covers MORE than just the
specification, and this MORE is covered by Background patents, for that we
should pay.
Another way to say it is that - there are many many ways to implement the
specification. The specification is only the bare minimum (e.g. must have
black walls). If my implementation has only black walls, there is no
royalty. But if the walls are black with white stripes, and white stripes
are patented, the party owning that patent should be able tor request
payment.
I know for IBM - we have a specific implementation of the Generic Enabler
Specification. There will be many many ways to implement the
specification. If someone creates their own implementation that covers the
specs, and does it in a different way - more power to them. But if someone
creates an implementation that copies what IBM does, and that is NOT in the
spec, I should be able to ask for royalties, or request that this someone
not infringe my patents.
IS THIS WHAT YOU MEAN?
Luis - our intention was that parties should contribute the specification
royalty free, but I do not think it was our intention that if the
implementation covers OTHER material that is patentable, that too must be
royalty free. Below in caps is my suggestion.
Notwithstanding any conflicting terms in this CA, the FI-WARE Generic
Enabler Specifications will be made publically available (upon
publication in accordance with clause 4.4.1) on royalty free terms.
For the sake of clarity, other Parties may use such FI-WARE Generic
Enabler Specifications to develop and release implementations of the
FI-WARE Generic Enabler Specifications on a royalty-free basis.
HOWEVER, NOT WITHSTANDING THE ABOVE, PARTIES THAT CONTRIBUTE TO THE
SPECIFICATION ARE NOT BARRED FROM REQUESTING ROYALTIES, OR PROTECTING
THEIR RIGHTS, FOR USE OF TECHNOLOGY NOT COVERED BY THE FIWARE GENERIC
ENABLER SPECIFICATION. (anyone know a better way to say this?)
What do you all think?
Suzanne
Suzanne Erez
Counsel, IPLaw, Israel
Associate PPM, PPM 160
IBM Haifa, Israel suzanne at il.ibm.com
Tel: 972-4-829-6069 Fax: 972-4-829-6521
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. -
Clark's Third Law
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From: "Schweppe, Kathrin" <kathrin.schweppe at sap.com>
To: "Heitto, Jonas (Jonas)" <jonas.heitto at alcatel-lucent.com>,
Suzanne Erez/Haifa/IBM at IBMIL, LUIS GARCIA GARCIA <lgg at tid.es>
Cc: "fiware-legal at lists.fi-ware.eu"
<fiware-legal at lists.fi-ware.eu>,
"fiware-legal-bounces at lists.fi-ware.eu"
<fiware-legal-bounces at lists.fi-ware.eu>
Date: 08/03/11 07:13 PM
Subject: AW: [Fiware-legal] Consortium Agreement FI-WARE / Generic
Enabler Specs
Dear Jonas,
as far as I understood it, and please someone should correct me, if I am
wrong, it was a mandatory prerequisite from the European Commission that
the Generic Enabler Specification have to be published upon royalty-free
conditions.
I think, I do not understand fully your comment. If SAP implements SAP GE
Specs, why should we pay ourselves? It would only make sense, if SAP pays
IBM for implementation of IBM's specs. And exactly that is what the EC
would like to see with regard to the specifications.
We have further protection with regard to patents, that you can check via
the publication process if there are patents enclosed upon which you do not
would like to see free implementations.
Best regards,
Kathrin
Kathrin Schweppe, LL.M.
Contract Specialist
Global Legal
SAP AG
Dietmar-Hopp-Allee 16
69190 Walldorf, Germany
T +49 6227 7-64369
F +49 6227 78-54177
E kathrin.schweppe at sap.com
http://www.sap.com
Sitz der Gesellschaft/Registered Office: Walldorf, Germany
Vorstand/SAP Executive Board: Bill McDermot (Sprecher/Co-CEO), Jim Hagemann
Snabe (Sprecher/Co-CEO), Werner Brandt, Gerhard Oswald, Vishal Sikka
Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats/Chairperson of the SAP Supervisory Board:
Hasso Plattner
Registergericht/Commercial Register Mannheim No HRB 350269
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Von: Heitto, Jonas (Jonas) [mailto:jonas.heitto at alcatel-lucent.com]
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 3. August 2011 18:00
An: Suzanne Erez; LUIS GARCIA GARCIA
Cc: fiware-legal at lists.fi-ware.eu; fiware-legal-bounces at lists.fi-ware.eu;
Schweppe, Kathrin
Betreff: RE: [Fiware-legal] Consortium Agreement FI-WARE / Generic Enabler
Speclaudia.manderfeld at zv.fraunhofer.decs
Susanne, all,
Even if the specs themselves are not patentable, which is likely, the
provision says that
...other Parties may use such FI-WARE Generic
Enabler Specifications to develop and release implementations of the
FI-WARE Generic Enabler Specifications on a royalty-free basis.
The 2nd paragraph merely states that a Party may develop implementations
and require royalties for their use. But the other Parties are still not
paying for their own implementations. Which we don't know yet. Which could
read on BG patents of the licensing party.
I still think that some clarification may be in order, or possibly updates
to the Background exclusion lists.
Please let me know what you think.
Jonas
-----Original Message-----
From: Suzanne Erez [mailto:SUZANNE at il.ibm.com]
Sent: Mittwoch, 3. August 2011 15:31
To: LUIS GARCIA GARCIA
Cc: fiware-legal at lists.fi-ware.eu; fiware-legal-bounces at lists.fi-ware.eu;
Heitto, Jonas (Jonas); Schweppe, Kathrin
Subject: Re: [Fiware-legal] Consortium Agreement FI-WARE / Generic Enabler
Speclaudia.manderfeld at zv.fraunhofer.decs
Luis,
If I may make a comment to Jonas.
Jonas - you asked a very very good question, that made me pause, and double
check with our technical people that I was on the right path. We at IBM
agree with Kathrin.
We do not see having patent applications being created or covering the
Generic Enabler SPECIFICATIONS. We do have Background and will have
Sideground, patents on the Generic Enablers THEMSELVES, but not on the
SPECIFICAIONS. We do not foresee the Specifications being so detailed as
to being patentable - they will simply list requirements.
So, as Kathrin said, since each Party has reserved the rights to license
the Generic Enablers themselves, and since you so rightly pointed out the
Exclusion List, we feel that we are in good shape.
wow, good comment.
Suzanne
Suzanne Erez
Counsel, IPLaw, Israel
Associate PPM, PPM 160
IBM Haifa, Israel suzanne at il.ibm.com
Tel: 972-4-829-6069 Fax: 972-4-829-6521
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. -
Clark's Third Law
PREPARED BY IBM ATTORNEY / PRIVILEGE REVIEW REQUIRED
This e-mail and its attachments, if any, may contain information that is
private, confidential, or protected by attorney-client, solicitor-client or
other privilege. If you received this e-mail in error, please delete it
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From: LUIS GARCIA GARCIA <lgg at tid.es>
To: "Schweppe, Kathrin" <kathrin.schweppe at sap.com>, "Heitto, Jonas
(Jonas)" <jonas.heitto at alcatel-lucent.com>
Cc: "fiware-legal at lists.fi-ware.eu" <fiware-legal at lists.fi-ware.eu>
Date: 08/03/11 11:06 AM
Subject: Re: [Fiware-legal] Consortium Agreement FI-WARE / Generic
Enabler Speclaudia.manderfeld at zv.fraunhofer.decs
Sent by: fiware-legal-bounces at lists.fi-ware.eu
Dear Jonas and all,
Nothing to add to Kathrin explanation. Further, this clause was widely
discussed and finally agreed long time ago.
Best regards
Luis García García
Asesoria Jurídica // Legal Department
Tfnos: +34 914832614 // +34913129666
Telefónica Investigación y Desarrollo, S.A.Unipersonal
DISTRITO C- Edificio Oeste 1, 5ª planta
Ronda de la Comunicación s/n
28050-Madrid (España)
De: fiware-legal-bounces at lists.fi-ware.eu [
mailto:fiware-legal-bounces at lists.fi-ware.eu] En nombre de Schweppe,
Kathrin
Enviado el: miércoles, 03 de agosto de 2011 9:56
Para: Heitto, Jonas (Jonas); fabian.perpeet at zv.fraunhofer.de
CC: fiware-legal at lists.fi-ware.eu
Asunto: Re: [Fiware-legal] Consortium Agreement FI-WARE / Generic Enabler
Speclaudia.manderfeld at zv.fraunhofer.decs
Dear Jonas, dear all,
I understand your concerns, we had similar concerns and therefore this
section was included:
For further sake of clarity, Parties including those Parties that
assisted in generating the FI-WARE Generic Enabler Specifications
may, but are not obliged to, develop implementations or reference
implementations of FI-WARE Generic Enabler Specifications and request
licensing terms other than open and royalty free for such, e.g. under
FRAND (Fair, Reasonable and Non-Discriminatory) terms subject to the
provisions of Article 4.2.3 and 4.2.4 below. The Parties may release
their implementations or reference implementations as open source or
closed source, at their sole discretion.
Then, the Generic Enabler Specification is only a description about
technical requirements and the like. Do you see that a patent could be
included there?
Taking all these things into account, do you think we need further
clarification here and if so, can you please propose some wording?
Thank you and best regards,
Kathrin
Kathrin Schweppe, LL.M.
Contract Specialist
Global Legal
SAP AG
Dietmar-Hopp-Allee 16
69190 Walldorf, Germany
T +49 6227 7-64369
F +49 6227 78-54177
E kathrin.schweppe at sap.com
http://www.sap.com
Sitz der Gesellschaft/Registered Office: Walldorf, Germany
Vorstand/SAP Executive Board: Bill McDermot (Sprecher/Co-CEO), Jim Hagemann
Snabe (Sprecher/Co-CEO), Werner Brandt, Gerhard Oswald, Vishal Sikka
Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats/Chairperson of the SAP Supervisory Board:
Hasso Plattner
Registergericht/Commercial Register Mannheim No HRB 350269
Diese e-mail kann Betriebs- oder Geschäftsgeheimnisse, dem Anwaltsgeheimnis
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Sie diese e-mail irrtümlich erhalten haben, ist Ihnen eine Kenntnisnahme
des Inhalts, eine Vervielfältigung oder Weitergabe der e-mail ausdrücklich
untersagt. Bitte benachrichtigen Sie uns und vernichten Sie die empfangene
e-mail. Vielen Dank.
Prepared by a member of SAP Global Legal. This message and any attachments
may contain information that is confidential, private or protected by the
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error, please delete this message without further copying or distribution
and promptly notify me. Thank you for your cooperation.
Von: Heitto, Jonas (Jonas) [mailto:jonas.heitto at alcatel-lucent.com]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 2. August 2011 18:42
An: Schweppe, Kathrin; fabian.perpeet at zv.fraunhofer.de
Cc: claudia.manderfeld at zv.fraunhofer.de;
klarissa.al-shorachi at izb.fraunhofer.de; jens.fiedler at fokus.fraunhofer.de;
Barbara.Gromer at neclab.eu; jimenez at tid.es; anne.tissier at thalesgroup.com;
susanne.weikl at nsn.com; SUZANNE at il.ibm.com; benedicte.pascal at intel.com;
Bettina.Lehmann at telekom.de; GALITL at il.ibm.com;
giampaoletti at dis.uniroma1.it; Hans.Einsiedler at telekom.de;
henk.heijnen at technicolor.com; irene.glueck-otte at siemens.com; jdps at tid.es;
jean-dominique.meunier at technicolor.com; jhierro at tid.es; MELZI, RAFFAELLA
(RAFFAELLA); mathilde.dubesset at technicolor.com; STAMM, Markus (Markus);
Wuenstel, Klaus (Klaus); nils-ivar.tjernberg at ericsson.com;
Patricia.BEDOUI at fr.thalesgroup.com; philippe.schaeffer at inria.fr;
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WOLFSTAL at il.ibm.com; Yves-Marie.LePannerer at technicolor.com;
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Sylvie.RAYNAUD at fr.thalesgroup.com; laila.gide at thalesgroup.com;
Beatriz.aznar at atos.net; lgg at tid.es
Betreff: RE: Consortium Agreement FI-WARE / Generic Enabler Specs
Dear all,
I'm opening a new thread lest we lose ourselves in the multitude of
exchanges on various subjects.
My concern relates to the 2nd paragpagh of Section 4.1:
Notwithstanding any conflicting terms in this CA, the FI-WARE Generic
Enabler Specifications will be made publically available (upon
publication in accordance with clause 4.4.1) on royalty free terms.
For the sake of clarity, other Parties may use such FI-WARE Generic
Enabler Specifications to develop and release implementations of the
FI-WARE Generic Enabler Specifications on a royalty-free basis.
Would people be against adding a clarification that this generous covenant
does not imply royalty free licensing of Background and Sideground patents,
should any read on such implementations? Or does everybody rely on their
Background and Sideground exclusions?
Regards
Jonas
Dr. Jonas Heitto, LL.M.
ALCATEL-LUCENT
Corporate IP Counsel
INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY & STANDARDS
( Tel +49 711 821 44561
2 Fax +49 711 821 44587
jonas.heitto at alcatel-lucent.com
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