Please bear in mind that the final text of the Legal Notice CANNOT make any reference to any agreement (grant, collaboration or consortium). The text must be standalone and meaningful for third parties users of the specifications. I understand that you are referring to the CA to back your analysis and argumentation, but I wanted to point the above just in case. BTW, the public and royalty-free nature of FI-WARE specifications cannot be a matter of discussion. It's a very fundamental principle of this project that was agreed even at proposal preparation time (i.e., 3 years ago). Please don't waist your time discussing about it. Regards, Juanjo Enviado desde mi iPad El 25/03/2013, a las 07:51, "Suzanne Erez" <SUZANNE at il.ibm.com> escribió: > Jonas, > > Agreed. > My analysis was however taken from this line and the reference to "develop > and release implementations... on a RF basis". The > > Parties signing this CA as well as any other third party may, subject to > additional conditions or agreement where requested by a Party/ the Parties > (provided that the right to obtain Access Rights granted under this > Agreement must not be negatively affected by such request),develop and > release implementations of the FI-WARE Generic Enabler Specifications on a > royalty-free basis. > > The entire section as follows: > > For avoidance of doubt, notwithstanding any terms to the contrary in this > CA, the Background or Sideground, including any intellectual property > rights > therein, shall remain the property of the Party holding rights to that > Background or Sideground and who contributed the Background or > Sideground to the Consortium. > > Notwithstanding any conflicting terms in this CA, but subject to Annex 3 > and Section 3.4.3.3,the FI-WARE Generic Enabler Specifications will be made > publically available (upon publication in accordance with clause 4.4.1) on > royalty free terms. For the sake of clarity, Parties signing this CA as > well as > any other third party may, subject to additional conditions or agreement > where requested by a Party/ the Parties (provided that the right to obtain > Access > Rights granted under this Agreement must not be negatively affected by such > request),develop and release implementations of the FI-WARE Generic > Enabler Specifications on a royalty-free basis. > > For further sake of clarity, Parties including those Parties that assisted > in generating the FI-WARE Generic Enabler Specifications may, but are not > obliged to, develop implementations or reference implementations of FIWARE > Generic Enabler Specifications and request licensing terms other than > open and royalty free for such, e.g. under FRAND (Fair, Reasonable and Non- > Discriminatory) terms subject to the provisions of Article 4.2.3 and 4.2.4 > below. > The Parties may release their implementations or reference implementations > as open source or closed source, at their sole discretion. > > However, notwithstanding the above, Parties are not barred from requesting > royalties for, or protecting their rights with respect to IPRs (e.g. but > not limited > to patents) in any such implementations of the FI-WARE Generic Enablers > Specifications, which are not directly disclosed by the FI-WARE Generic > Enabler Specifications or which are not inherent to, or cannot trivially be > derived as valid implementation of part of the FI-WARE Generic Enabler > Specifications > > > Suzanne > > Suzanne Erez > Counsel, IPLaw, Israel > Associate PPM, PPM 150, 160 > IBM Haifa, Israel suzanne at il.ibm.com > Tel: 972-4-829-6069 Fax: 972-4-829-6521 > > You may have to fight a battle more than once to win it." --Margaret > Thatcher > > PREPARED BY IBM ATTORNEY / PRIVILEGE REVIEW REQUIRED This e-mail and its > attachments, if any, may contain information that is private, confidential, > or protected by attorney-client, solicitor-client or other privilege. If > you received this e-mail in error, please delete it from your system > without copying it and notify me of the misdirection by reply e-mail. > > > > From: "Heitto, Jonas (Jonas)" <jonas.heitto at alcatel-lucent.com> > To: "Schweppe, Kathrin" <kathrin.schweppe at sap.com>, Suzanne > Erez/Haifa/IBM at IBMIL, Nils-Ivar Tjernberg > <nils-ivar.tjernberg at ericsson.com>, > Cc: "Neidecker-Lutz, Burkhard" <burkhard.neidecker-lutz at sap.com>, > "fiware-legal at lists.fi-ware.eu" > <fiware-legal at lists.fi-ware.eu>, "Riedl, Johannes" > <johannes.riedl at siemens.com>, "Amon, Peter" > <p.amon at siemens.com>, "fiware-legal-bounces at lists.fi-ware.eu" > <fiware-legal-bounces at lists.fi-ware.eu>, "Calkins, Mary" > <mary.calkins at sap.com> > Date: 25/03/2013 05:03 AM > Subject: RE: [Fiware-legal] FIWARE LEGAL NOTICE > > > > Dear all, > > If you read this sentence: > > Notwithstanding any conflicting terms in this CA, but subject to Annex 3 > and Section 3.4.3.3, the FI-WARE Generic Enabler Specifications will be > made publically available (upon publication in accordance with clause > 4.4.1) on royalty free terms. > > You will notice that the focus on making the specs publicly available on RF > terms i.e. the download of the spec is not subject to payment. I agree that > this necessarily includes a copyright license, since the specs need to be > saved and possibly reproduced. > > However, in my view it certainly does not mandate RF licensing of patents > reading on any implementation of the spec. The download and reading of the > spec do not infringe anybody's patents. There are many more steps to take > before you can make, use, offer or sell a product or operate a process. > Only these acts infringe patents and necessitate granting a patent license. > These licenses should be available if needed, but not at mandatory RF > terms. > > Regards > Jonas > > Dr. Jonas Heitto, LL.M. > Senior IP Counsel > ALCATEL-LUCENT INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY & STANDARDS > ** Tel +49 711 821 44561 > ** Fax +49 711 821 44587 > jonas.heitto at alcatel-lucent.com > > Alcatel-Lucent Deutschland AG > Lorenzstraße 10 > 70435 Stuttgart > > Sitz der Gesellschaft/ Domicile of the Company: Stuttgart . Amtsgericht/ > District Court Stuttgart HRB 4026 Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrates/ Chairman > of the Board of Directors: Michael Oppenhoff Vorstand/ Board of Management: > Alf Henryk Wulf (Vorsitzender/ Chairman) . Hans-Jörg Daub . Dr. Rainer > Fechner . Andreas Gehe > > Note: This e-mail message and any documents accompanying it may contain > confidential and/or legally privileged information belonging to > Alcatel-Lucent. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby > notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or the taking of any > action in reliance on the information is strictly prohibited. If you have > received this e-mail in error, please immediately notify us and delete all > copies of the transmission. > > -----Original Message----- > From: fiware-legal-bounces at lists.fi-ware.eu [ > mailto:fiware-legal-bounces at lists.fi-ware.eu] On Behalf Of Schweppe, > Kathrin > Sent: Donnerstag, 21. März 2013 15:23 > To: Suzanne Erez; Nils-Ivar Tjernberg > Cc: Neidecker-Lutz, Burkhard; fiware-legal at lists.fi-ware.eu; Riedl, > Johannes; Amon, Peter; fiware-legal-bounces at lists.fi-ware.eu; Calkins, Mary > Subject: Re: [Fiware-legal] FIWARE LEGAL NOTICE > > Dear all, > > SAP agrees with IBM. We would as well prefer to ask for royalties for the > patents disclosed in the Generic Enabler Specification and necessary to use > for the implementations of the Generic Enabler Specification. I do remember > however, that all partners agreed 2 years ago to include such license upon > royalty-free conditions into the Fi-Ware Consortium Agreement. > > SAP understands the CA language copies so nicely by Suzanne from IBM in the > same way as IBM does. We can request royalties for features, which are not > included into the Specification directly or our own Implementation of the > said Specification, however it was clear, that the Generic Enabler > Specification should open and accessible to third parties on royalty-free > basis. You find this statement not only in the Fi-Ware Consortium > Agreement, but as well in several parts of the DOW of Fi-Ware and the > specific description of FI-Ware Generic Enablers in the Collaboration > Agreement, please draw your attention to B.1.1.2.4 of the DOW: > > "B.1.1.2.4 Business Ecosystem > The following table describe the different roles in the overall value chain > defined around FI-WARE: > > Table 2. Roles in the value chain defined around FI-WARE Role Description > > FI-WARE GE Provider Any implementer of a FI-WARE GE. The open and > royalty-free nature of FI-WARE GE specifications will allow parties > other than partners in the FI-WARE consortium to develop and commercialize > products that are in compliance with FI- WARE > GE specifications. > > The DOW states as well that the specification will be royalty free and > allow third parties develop and commercialize products based on the Fi-Ware > GE Specification." > > You may decide by yourselves, if royalties for patents disclosed by the > specifications are then appropriate. > > We appreciate your input upon the matter. > > Best regards, > Kathrin > > Kathrin Schweppe, LL.M. > Legal Counsel > Global Legal > SAP AG > Dietmar-Hopp-Allee 16 > 69190 Walldorf, Germany > T +49 6227 7-64369 > F +49 6227 78-54177 > E kathrin.schweppe at sap.com > http://www.sap.com > Pflichtangaben/Mandatory Disclosure Statements: > http://www.sap.com/company/legal/impressum.epx > > Diese E-Mail kann Betriebs- oder Geschäftsgeheimnisse oder sonstige > vertrauliche Informationen enthalten. Sollten Sie diese E-Mail irrtümlich > erhalten haben, ist Ihnen eine Kenntnisnahme des Inhalts, eine > Vervielfältigung oder Weitergabe der E-Mail ausdrücklich untersagt. Bitte > benachrichtigen Sie uns und vernichten Sie die empfangene E-Mail. Vielen > Dank. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: fiware-legal-bounces at lists.fi-ware.eu [ > mailto:fiware-legal-bounces at lists.fi-ware.eu] On Behalf Of Suzanne Erez > Sent: Donnerstag, 21. März 2013 14:32 > To: Nils-Ivar Tjernberg > Cc: fiware-legal at lists.fi-ware.eu; Riedl, Johannes; Amon, Peter; > fiware-legal-bounces at lists.fi-ware.eu > Subject: Re: [Fiware-legal] FIWARE LEGAL NOTICE > > All, > > IBM agrees with all - IBM would be pleased to ask for FRAND terms that are > no RF for licenses that cover the distribution and implementation of the > Generic Enabler Specification. However, we all agreed 2 years ago in the > CA to make the licenses RF. > > We can however ask royalties for features not in the specifications, or for > our own implementations of said specifications. > > Please correct me if I understand the CA incorrectly. > > In the Fi-Ware CA, section 4.1, > > Notwithstanding any conflicting terms in this CA, but subject to Annex 3 > and Section 3.4.3.3, the FI-WARE Generic Enabler Specifications will be > made publically available (upon publication in accordance with clause > 4.4.1) on royalty free terms. For the sake of clarity, Parties signing this > CA as well as any other third party may, subject to additional conditions > or agreement where requested by a Party/ the Parties (provided that the > right to obtain Access Rights granted under this Agreement must not be > negatively affected by such request),develop and release implementations of > the FI-WARE Generic Enabler Specifications on a royalty-free basis. > > For further sake of clarity, Parties including those Parties that assisted > in generating the FI-WARE Generic Enabler Specifications may, but are not > obliged to, develop implementations or reference implementations of FIWARE > Generic Enabler Specifications and request licensing terms other than open > and royalty free for such, e.g. under FRAND (Fair, Reasonable and Non- > Discriminatory) terms subject to the provisions of Article 4.2.3 and 4.2.4 > below. The Parties may release their implementations or reference > implementations as open source or closed source, at their sole discretion. > > Suzanne > > Suzanne Erez > Counsel, IPLaw, Israel > Associate PPM, PPM 150, 160 > IBM Haifa, Israel suzanne at il.ibm.com > Tel: 972-4-829-6069 Fax: 972-4-829-6521 > > You may have to fight a battle more than once to win it." --Margaret > Thatcher > > PREPARED BY IBM ATTORNEY / PRIVILEGE REVIEW REQUIRED This e-mail and its > attachments, if any, may contain information that is private, confidential, > or protected by attorney-client, solicitor-client or other privilege. If > you received this e-mail in error, please delete it from your system > without copying it and notify me of the misdirection by reply e-mail. > > > > From: Nils-Ivar Tjernberg <nils-ivar.tjernberg at ericsson.com> > To: "Mohr, Werner (NSN - DE/Munich)" <werner.mohr at nsn.com>, "ext > Glueck-Otte, Irene" <irene.glueck-otte at siemens.com>, > LUIS > GARCIA GARCIA <lgg at tid.es>, "fiware-legal at lists.fi-ware.eu" > <fiware-legal at lists.fi-ware.eu>, > Cc: "Amon, Peter" <p.amon at siemens.com>, "Riedl, Johannes" > <johannes.riedl at siemens.com> > Date: 21/03/2013 11:56 AM > Subject: Re: [Fiware-legal] FIWARE LEGAL NOTICE > Sent by: fiware-legal-bounces at lists.fi-ware.eu > > > > Dear all, > > Ericsson is also supporting this position. > > Best regards > > Nils-Ivar > > > > > > > > > > NILS-IVAR TJERNBERG M.Sc. > Swedish Authorized IP Attorney > > Ericsson AB > Licensing and Patent Development > Torshamnsgatan 21-23 > 164 80 Stockholm, Sweden > Phone +46 10 7136545 > Fax +46 10 7175695 > SMS/MMS +46 730311605 > nils-ivar.tjernberg at ericsson.com > www.ericsson.com > > > > From: fiware-legal-bounces at lists.fi-ware.eu [ > mailto:fiware-legal-bounces at lists.fi-ware.eu] On Behalf Of Mohr, Werner > (NSN - DE/Munich) > Sent: den 21 mars 2013 10:14 > To: ext Glueck-Otte, Irene; LUIS GARCIA GARCIA; > fiware-legal at lists.fi-ware.eu > Cc: Amon, Peter; Riedl, Johannes > Subject: Re: [Fiware-legal] FIWARE LEGAL NOTICE > > Dear Colleagues, > based on the e-mail discussion we reviewed the document again. Nokia > Siemens Networks is supporting the Siemens position and would also be happy > with the FRAND conditions. > Best regards, > Werner > Dr. Werner Mohr > Head of Research Alliances > Nokia Siemens Networks Management International GmbH > CEF T&S IE Research Alliances > St. Martin Strasse 76 > 81541 Munich > Germany > Office phone: +49-89-5159-35117 > Office fax: +49-89-5159-35121 > Mobile phone: +49-171-3340 788 > e-Mail: werner.mohr at nsn.com > Nokia Siemens Networks Management International GmbH > Geschäftsleitung / Board of Directors: Andreas Sauer, Ralf Dietzel > Sitz der Gesellschaft: München / Registered office: Munich > Registergericht: München / Commercial registry: Munich, HRB 198081 > From: ext Glueck-Otte, Irene [mailto:irene.glueck-otte at siemens.com] > Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 9:27 AM > To: LUIS GARCIA GARCIA; Mohr, Werner (NSN - DE/Munich); > fiware-legal at lists.fi-ware.eu > Cc: Amon, Peter; Riedl, Johannes; JUAN JOSE HIERRO SUREDA > Subject: AW: [Fiware-legal] FIWARE LEGAL NOTICE > Dear Luis, > I know quite well that FRAND-conditions might be royalty-free under > specific circumstances. Here however the fact that patent licenses have to > be royalty-free is implemented as a general rule. In this context the > additional mentioning of FRAND does not make any sense because the chance > to evaluate the situation and to fix a price in accordance with this > situation (which might be zero) is already blocked. The text as it is does > not make any sense. As far as I remember we had the discussion about > royalty-free patent licenses already some months ago and a significant > amount of partners have been against royalty-free patent licenses and for > patent licenses under FRAND conditions. To be honest I do not see "the > essence of the project" that requires mandatory royalty-free licenses. > Mit freundlichen Grüßen > Irene Glück-Otte > > Siemens AG > Corporate Legal and Compliance > CL CS CU CT&IP > Otto-Hahn-Ring 6 > 81739 München, Deutschland > Tel.: +49 89 636-33276 > Fax: +49 89 636-50441 > Mobil: +49 1522 2797796 > mailto:irene.glueck-otte at siemens.com > > Siemens Aktiengesellschaft: Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Gerhard Cromme; > Vorstand: Peter Löscher, Vorsitzender; Roland Busch, Brigitte Ederer, Klaus > Helmrich, Joe Kaeser, Barbara Kux, Hermann Requardt, Siegfried Russwurm, > Peter Y. Solmssen, Michael Süß; Sitz der Gesellschaft: Berlin und München, > Deutschland; Registergericht: Berlin Charlottenburg, HRB 12300, München, > HRB 6684; WEEE-Reg.-Nr. DE 23691322 > Von: LUIS GARCIA GARCIA [mailto:lgg at tid.es] > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 20. März 2013 18:41 > An: Glueck-Otte, Irene; Mohr, Werner (NSN - DE/Munich); > fiware-legal at lists.fi-ware.eu > Cc: Amon, Peter; Riedl, Johannes; JUAN JOSE HIERRO SUREDA > Betreff: RE: [Fiware-legal] FIWARE LEGAL NOTICE > Dear Irene and all, > Thanks for you inputs. In order to clarify the Legal Notice Task Force > position about the point (FRAND Vs RF) in the explicit grant model, we want > to point out that this question was widely discussed among us and we all > agreed that both terms are not incompatible at all. You can grant a RF and > FRAND license at the same time. > Please look at the Grant Agreement definition of Fair and Reasonable > Conditions in GA Annex II": > II.1.6. "fair and reasonable conditions" means appropriate conditions > including possible financial terms taking into account the specific > circumstances of the request for access, for example the > actual or potential value of the foreground or background to which access > is requested and/or the scope, duration or other characteristics of the use > envisaged; > As you may see Financial terms are configured as a possibility not as a > mandatory feature of a FRAND license. If we included RF and FRAND is just > to emphasize that all these conditions must be in the license grant. > Royalty free character of this Legal Notice is in the essence of this > project and in accordance with the FI-WARE Grant Agreement and Consortium > Agreement. > I hope I´ve clarified this legal notice key point > Thanks and regards > Luis García García > Asesoria Jurídica // Legal Department > Tfnos: +34 914832614 // +34913129666 > Telefónica Investigación y Desarrollo, S.A.Unipersonal > DISTRITO C- Edificio Oeste 1, 5ª planta > Ronda de la Comunicación s/n > 28050-Madrid (España) > > De: Glueck-Otte, Irene [mailto:irene.glueck-otte at siemens.com] > Enviado el: miércoles, 20 de marzo de 2013 16:47 > Para: Mohr, Werner (NSN - DE/Munich); LUIS GARCIA GARCIA; > fiware-legal at lists.fi-ware.eu > CC: Amon, Peter; Riedl, Johannes > Asunto: AW: [Fiware-legal] FIWARE LEGAL NOTICE > Dear Luis, > we fully endorse the opinion of NSN that the actual text in the version > "explicit" for Patent licenses is inconsistent. A license can be under > FRAND-conditions or it can be royalty-free but not both at the same time. > However our consequences out of this inconsistency are not the same. > Our proposal is to leave "on fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory > conditions" in as it is, but to delete "royalty-free, paid up" > In our view there should be no obligation to grant patent licenses > royalty-free. > Mit freundlichen Grüßen/Kind regards > Irene Glück-Otte > > Siemens AG > Corporate Legal and Compliance > CL CS CU CT&IP > Otto-Hahn-Ring 6 > 81739 München, Deutschland > Tel.: +49 89 636-33276 > Fax: +49 89 636-50441 > Mobil: +49 1522 2797796 > mailto:irene.glueck-otte at siemens.com > > Siemens Aktiengesellschaft: Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Gerhard Cromme; > Vorstand: Peter Löscher, Vorsitzender; Roland Busch, Brigitte Ederer, Klaus > Helmrich, Joe Kaeser, Barbara Kux, Hermann Requardt, Siegfried Russwurm, > Peter Y. Solmssen, Michael Süß; Sitz der Gesellschaft: Berlin und München, > Deutschland; Registergericht: Berlin Charlottenburg, HRB 12300, München, > HRB 6684; WEEE-Reg.-Nr. DE 23691322 > Von: fiware-legal-bounces at lists.fi-ware.eu [ > mailto:fiware-legal-bounces at lists.fi-ware.eu] Im Auftrag von Mohr, Werner > (NSN - DE/Munich) > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 20. März 2013 13:13 > An: ext LUIS GARCIA GARCIA; fiware-legal at lists.fi-ware.eu > Betreff: Re: [Fiware-legal] FIWARE LEGAL NOTICE > Dear Luis, > please find attached the commented versions from Nokia Siemens Networks > including text changes to improve clarity on the explicit and the implicit > legal notice. There are some questions included for clarification. > There are two general comments from the Nokia Siemens Networks perspective > as follows: > · The NSN preference would be (always) to use the implicit > grant. > · Any use of the explicit patent grant would need case by case > assessment. > We are looking forward for a revised version. > Best regards, > Werner > Dr. Werner Mohr > Head of Research Alliances > Nokia Siemens Networks Management International GmbH > CEF T&S IE Research Alliances > St. Martin Strasse 76 > 81541 Munich > Germany > Office phone: +49-89-5159-35117 > Office fax: +49-89-5159-35121 > Mobile phone: +49-171-3340 788 > e-Mail: werner.mohr at nsn.com > Nokia Siemens Networks Management International GmbH > Geschäftsleitung / Board of Directors: Andreas Sauer, Ralf Dietzel > Sitz der Gesellschaft: München / Registered office: Munich > Registergericht: München / Commercial registry: Munich, HRB 198081 > From: fiware-legal-bounces at lists.fi-ware.eu [ > mailto:fiware-legal-bounces at lists.fi-ware.eu] On Behalf Of ext LUIS GARCIA > GARCIA > Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2013 12:12 PM > To: fiware-legal at lists.fi-ware.eu > Subject: [Fiware-legal] FIWARE LEGAL NOTICE > Dear all, > Find enclosed the two legal notices that have been produced by the Task > Force Working Group launched by the FI-WARE PCC for this purpose. These > Legal Notices will govern the FI-WARE specifications generated under > FI-WARE. > There are two models: with explicit patent grant and implicit patent grant. > You may choose the one you prefer for your Specifications as both, in our > opinion, perfectly fits with the provisions of the FI-WARE CA and GA. > Notwithstanding, if you have any question or remarks, send them to me > before next 20th March, as we must have this FIWARE Legal Notice > definitively finished during April. > Best regards > Luis García García > Asesoria Jurídica // Legal Department > Tfnos: +34 914832614 // +34913129666 > Telefónica Investigación y Desarrollo, S.A.Unipersonal > DISTRITO C- Edificio Oeste 1, 5ª planta > Ronda de la Comunicación s/n > 28050-Madrid (España) > > > > Este mensaje se dirige exclusivamente a su destinatario. Puede consultar > nuestra política de envío y recepción de correo electrónico en el enlace > situado más abajo. > This message is intended exclusively for its addressee. 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