Dear Juanjo, let me be clear, NEC is not for or against "royalty-free", of itself, but there are many practical issues. We would like to see the position of ETSI clarified. Therefore I ask you to follow through with the suggestion of Franck, Cathy and myself to send the ToR to ETSI, with the words "and royalty-fee" highlighted, and ask ETSI for their view on including that text or not. I attach the previous discussed version, which I sent to all at 11.08.2016 12:31, but now with the markups accepted and only "and royalty-free" highlighted (with a comment box "There is concern about the practical/legal issues of including “royalty-free” for an ISG. The founding members have reasoning for and against. The advice/comment of ETSI is sought.". If you agree Juanjo, you can simply send the attachment within an appropriate email. ** continuing the discussion ** There are some more factors to mention in our discussion based on your last email: (1) ISG CIM will use NGSI, an OMA spec published under FRAND. Therefore a large part of the ISG spec can NOT be guaranteed royalty-free. (2) FIWARE intensively uses OMA-NGSI, under FRAND rules, so even users of FIWARE have some risk when implementing FIWARE GEs. FIWARE guarantees that the _code_ will not be subject to fees, but nobody can guarantee that no IPR exists behind the use of the system. (3) It appears that "royalty-free" was deleted from the list of planned deliverables, possibly by Herman.B?... but I cannot find the reasoning behind that. It would be good to know. best wishes Lindsay ________________________________________ Dr. Lindsay Frost, Chief Standardization Eng. frost at neclab.eu<mailto:frost at neclab.eu> Mobile +49.163.275.1734 NEC Laboratories Europe, Kurfürsten-Anlage 36, D-69115 Heidelberg, Germany. Reg. Headoffice: NEC Europe Ltd, VAT DE161569151 Athene, Odyssey Business Park, West End Road, London HA4 6QE, Reg. in England 2832014 From: Juanjo Hierro [mailto:juanjose.hierro at telefonica.com] Sent: Freitag, 12. August 2016 13:59 To: Lindsay Frost; franck.le-gall at eglobalmark.com; fiware-oasc-etsi at lists.fiware.org Subject: Re: [Fiware-oasc-etsi] Revised version of ToR ready for submission We are not talking about open source here. We are not talking about implementation (products) We are talking about API specs. Tell me about any two open standard API specs that are widely adopted in the market and are not public and royalty-free. Your reference to IETF I guess is not applicable (maybe IETF goes for FRAND terms regarding certain network protocols, I don't know). Royalty-free is a specific case of FRAND (there is no more Fair, Reasonable and Non-Discriminatory license to potential implementers :-). Therefore, it doesn't go against ETSI legal framework. It actually develops it making it clear that public and royalty-free is the option adopted for API specs. Again, it is about going against the world or not. If we go for API specifications that will require payment of licenses by potential implementers, then we simply are not going to succeed in the market. Google or Amazon or even W3C will arrive with an API overlapping with ours that it is public and royalty-free (they know this is the only and common practice that will be widely adopted and they know how to bring differentiation in the implementation instead of the API specs) and that will be the end of the story. In my honest opinion, if ETSI impedes to produce public and royalty-free API specifications, then we shall try to push our stuff in other bodies like W3C. Maybe it could be more difficult in the beginning, and certainly frustrating because some of us would like to see European standard bodies taking a lead in global API open standards, but it may be more fruitful in the end. FIWARE API specs are public and royalty-free, because partners agreed on that and the EC also confirmed this was a requirement. I guess you don't need to go for approval within NEC because you are already complying with that rule. Best regards, -- Juanjo On 12/08/16 10:41, Lindsay Frost wrote: Dear Juanjo, dear Franck, I welcome Franck's suggestion to seek ETSI advice. NEC collaborates in many open-source projects but each special case has to go up through 2 committees for approval. If Juanjo would highlight the text "and royalty-free" in the ToR, and request ETSI feedback, that would help. Dear Juanjo, (a) Regarding your question re open defacto standards that are not royalty-free ... see IETF. (b) all 5 of the ISG ToRs which I checked simply cite ETSI IPR policy. (c) Vincent from Orange advised in an email of 14.03.2016 " Last, mentioning Royalty-Free specifications should be deleted as the existing ETSI legal framework should apply." best wishes Lindsay ________________________________________ Dr. Lindsay Frost, Chief Standardization Eng. frost at neclab.eu<mailto:frost at neclab.eu> Mobile +49.163.275.1734 NEC Laboratories Europe, Kurfürsten-Anlage 36, D-69115 Heidelberg, Germany. Reg. Headoffice: NEC Europe Ltd, VAT DE161569151 Athene, Odyssey Business Park, West End Road, London HA4 6QE, Reg. in England 2832014 From: franck.le-gall at eglobalmark.com<mailto:franck.le-gall at eglobalmark.com> [mailto:franck.le-gall at eglobalmark.com] Sent: Freitag, 12. August 2016 09:18 To: Lindsay Frost; fiware-oasc-etsi at lists.fiware.org<mailto:fiware-oasc-etsi at lists.fiware.org>; Juanjo Hierro Subject: Re: [Fiware-oasc-etsi] Revised version of ToR ready for submission Hello As I said, the best is to ask advice to ETSI on that topic. They have been working on IPR and standardisation related issues for years. and they will be the best positioned to quickly tell us how to formulate that in-line with their rules. So I suggest to send any version of the ToR that we have, asking them to reformulate the IPR section to include the royalty free part. kind regards Franck -----Original Message----- From: Juanjo Hierro <juanjose.hierro at telefonica.com<mailto:juanjose.hierro at telefonica.com>> To: Lindsay Frost <Lindsay.Frost at neclab.eu<mailto:Lindsay.Frost at neclab.eu>>, "fiware-oasc-etsi at lists.fiware.org<mailto:fiware-oasc-etsi at lists.fiware.org>" <fiware-oasc-etsi at lists.fiware.org<mailto:fiware-oasc-etsi at lists.fiware.org>> Sent: ven., 12 août 2016 5:52 Subject: Re: [Fiware-oasc-etsi] Revised version of ToR ready for submission This is not acceptable to us. Precisely, what we want to avoid is that companies join the group and introduce elements in the specs they will later be able to ask royalties for. Besides this, no API that claims to be open has specifications that are not royalty-free. Specifications of Open APIs, by definition, are public and royalty-free. Those companies that pretend to create a de-facto API standard claiming royalties to potential implementers of the specs will simply fail. Could you give me any example of an open de-facto standard API that is not not public and royalty-free? All the W3C or OMG specs, to cite two examples are public and royalty-free. If ETSI imposes that API specs cannot be public and royalty-free, then ETSI is the wrong place to standardize APIs. I rather hope this is not the case. Note, btw, that the EC very soon made it clear that FIWARE specs must be public and royalty-free (besides it added there should be an open source reference implementation, but that is not the point in question here). I doubt also that the EC would give up that requirement. Looking for you feedback. Note this is a cornerstone topic. We have to agree in a common position here. I won't send a ToR without this issue getting crystal clear. Cheers! -- Juanjo On 11/08/16 12:30, Lindsay Frost wrote: Dear Juanjo and all, attached is the version Juanjo sent, cleaned up, but with the two changes we have been discussing highlighted in change-tracking. Regarding the FRAND discussions, I read the arguments which Franck sent at 11.08.2016 01:07 and I can imagine that writing "royalty-free" will raise additional difficulties which we do not need at this time. Perhaps we could compromise on the following paragraph, which is still attractive I believe for Smart Cities and other Participants: Work in the CIM ISG will follow an implementation-driven approach, as opposed to a “design by committee” approach, and it will be focused on agile delivery. Group Specifications developed within the CIM ISG will be public. The ISG CIM aims to re-use established specifications where appropriate, which may mean referencing specifications under FRAND conditions. When that is the case, readers shall be notified. The development will be backed by experience obtained through open source implementations. This also avoids that existing ETSI members, who want to join the ISG, have to go back to their IPR Policy Departments and get a special approval for the difference to ETSI ipr policy (something I was not looking forward towards). If that is acceptable to all, then just hit "accept all changes" and the document is done. Discussion welcome of course! best wishes, Lindsay ________________________________________ Dr. Lindsay Frost, Chief Standardization Eng. frost at neclab.eu<mailto:frost at neclab.eu> Mobile +49.163.275.1734 NEC Laboratories Europe, Kurfürsten-Anlage 36, D-69115 Heidelberg, Germany. Reg. Headoffice: NEC Europe Ltd, VAT DE161569151 Athene, Odyssey Business Park, West End Road, London HA4 6QE, Reg. in England 2832014 From: fiware-oasc-etsi-bounces at lists.fiware.org<mailto:fiware-oasc-etsi-bounces at lists.fiware.org> [mailto:fiware-oasc-etsi-bounces at lists.fiware.org] On Behalf Of Juanjo Hierro Sent: Donnerstag, 11. August 2016 08:03 To: fiware-oasc-etsi at lists.fiware.org<mailto:fiware-oasc-etsi at lists.fiware.org> Subject: [Fiware-oasc-etsi] Revised version of ToR ready for submission Hi all, Please find attached the revised version of the ToR which I believe would be ready for submission. I used the latest version circulated by Cathy which integrated the previous comments by Lindsay and essentially performed the following actions: * I fixed the paragraph on the public and royalty-free nature of specs, with the text I suggested with which Lindsay also agreed. * I rescued comments I had introduced in the version sent by Hermann which Lindsay had accepted them and therefore didn't appear as highlighted with revision marks :-) I hope I didn't miss any ... Please confirm this version would be ok with you. As mentioned in a previous mail, I will be traveling to USA departing on 12:00pm CET today. Therefore, you have the whole day to review the document and I'll check your comments in the evening/tonight from the hotel. If I don't hear about any objection by then, I will sent the document to ETSI. Best regards, -- Juanjo ______________________________________________________ Coordinator and Chief Architect, FIWARE platform IoT Unit, Telefónica email: juanjose.hierro at telefonica.com<mailto:juanjose.hierro at telefonica.com> twitter: @JuanjoHierro You can follow FIWARE at: website: http://www.fiware.org twitter: @FIWARE facebook: http://www.facebook.com/pages/FI-WARE/251366491587242 linkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/groups/FIWARE-4239932 ________________________________ Este mensaje y sus adjuntos se dirigen exclusivamente a su destinatario, puede contener información privilegiada o confidencial y es para uso exclusivo de la persona o entidad de destino. Si no es usted. el destinatario indicado, queda notificado de que la lectura, utilización, divulgación y/o copia sin autorización puede estar prohibida en virtud de la legislación vigente. Si ha recibido este mensaje por error, le rogamos que nos lo comunique inmediatamente por esta misma vía y proceda a su destrucción. 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