Many thanks, indeed, Philipp for informing me.
I will read through the document you have provided, and if it is OK with you, I could give you some feedback from our viewpoint early next week.
Have a nice weekend!
Sofia
***************************************************
Dr. Sofia Tsekeridou
Assistant Professor
Head of Multimedia, Knowledge and Web Technologies Research Area
Athens Information Technology - AIT
0.8 km Markopoulou Ave.
19002 Peania, Athens, GREECE
Tel.: +302106682804, Fax: +302106682703
E-mail: sots at ait.gr
sofia at ieee.org
Web: http://www.ait.gr/ait_web_site/faculty/sots/tsekeridou.html
***************************************************
________________________________________
From: Philipp Slusallek [slusallek at dfki.de]
Sent: 20 July 2012 17:31
To: Sofia Tsekeridou
Cc: fiware-streaming at lists.fi-ware.eu; ab at fi-ppp.eu
Subject: Re: [Fiware-streaming] Fiware-streaming Digest, Vol 4, Issue 6
Hi Sofia, all,
Thanks for the confirmation and thanks for summarizing your requirements.
Let me mention what I have presented already in the last AB meeting:
Namely that we are covering high-performance image/video processing also
in the UserInterface/AugmentedReality use case that is likely going into
the second call. At the last AB meeting we have agreed to keep the
analysis aspects of the two GEs (Streaming and UI) separate for the call
but might merge them once we have the submissions available (depending
on reviewer comments).
For your information, I am attaching the slides I used in the AB meeting
to present the UI-GE. You see our proposal (mainly for AR, but the
technology behind this would be much more general), specifically the
Epics on Dataflpw-Processing and HW-Support but the other epics might
provide some context for the use case.
Note, that the GE defines services that will have to run not only inthe
cloud but also on small devices (smart phone, tablet, but equally well
on a device embedded with a camera). Also note, that we define full
programmability in addition to configurability from a set of predefined
"kernels". Due to our real-time requirements all of this is designed to
run with lowest latency requirements in order to get the best user
experience (specifically not make them get sick :-).
As mentioned in the slides, I think this largely covers also your use
cases so that I see a lot of overlap here. But again, we will likely
revisit this after we have the proposals in.
Best,
Philipp
Am 20.07.2012 16:13, schrieb Sofia Tsekeridou:
> Dear Philipp, all,
>
> To answer your comments on SafeCity content analysis requirements in your earlier e-mail:
>
> 1. The analysis in the compressed domain are useful in SafeCity indeed as a pre-filter (envisioned to be performed at the SafeCity Gateway) to forward selected video segments/streams (in e.g. ones that activity has been detected) for further processing in the pixel domain and thus optimize both computing resources and bandwidth usage.
>
> 2. Indeed the analysis in crowded scenes requires significant processing and robust algorithms in the pixel domain - there of course we have a trade-off among robustness/efficiency and real-time processing --> the real need for a cloud infrastructure with high computing power.
>
> 3. In many cases, e.g. object detection, face identification, etc. depending on visual descriptors, we require image (instead of video) processing capabilities.
>
> I have already published the above (and other requirements) and issued respective tickets on Fusion Forge.
>
> With warm regards,
>
> Sofia
>
> ***************************************************
> Dr. Sofia Tsekeridou
> Assistant Professor
> Head of Multimedia, Knowledge and Web Technologies Research Area
> Athens Information Technology - AIT
> 0.8 km Markopoulou Ave.
> 19002 Peania, Athens, GREECE
> Tel.: +302106682804, Fax: +302106682703
> E-mail: sots at ait.gr
> sofia at ieee.org
> Web: http://www.ait.gr/ait_web_site/faculty/sots/tsekeridou.html
> ***************************************************
>
> ________________________________________
> From: fiware-streaming-bounces at lists.fi-ware.eu [fiware-streaming-bounces at lists.fi-ware.eu] on behalf of fiware-streaming-request at lists.fi-ware.eu [fiware-streaming-request at lists.fi-ware.eu]
> Sent: 20 July 2012 17:02
> To: fiware-streaming at lists.fi-ware.eu
> Subject: Fiware-streaming Digest, Vol 4, Issue 6
>
> Send Fiware-streaming mailing list submissions to
> fiware-streaming at lists.fi-ware.eu
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.fi-ware.eu/listinfo/fiware-streaming
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> fiware-streaming-request at lists.fi-ware.eu
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> fiware-streaming-owner at lists.fi-ware.eu
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Fiware-streaming digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: [FI-PPP AB] Fiware-streaming Digest, Vol 4, Issue 3
> (Philipp Slusallek)
> 2. Re: Fiware-streaming Digest, Vol 4, Issue 3 (Sofia Tsekeridou)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 13:59:46 +0200
> From: Philipp Slusallek <slusallek at cs.uni-saarland.de>
> To: "Amon, Peter" <p.amon at siemens.com>
> Cc: "ab at fi-ppp.eu" <ab at fi-ppp.eu>, "fiware-streaming at lists.fi-ware.eu"
> <fiware-streaming at lists.fi-ware.eu>
> Subject: Re: [Fiware-streaming] [FI-PPP AB] Fiware-streaming Digest,
> Vol 4, Issue 3
> Message-ID: <50094832.6070701 at cs.uni-saarland.de>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>
> Hi,
>
> Am 20.07.2012 10:53, schrieb Amon, Peter:
>> Therefore, let me describe the properties of the "codoan" asset directly: codoan analyzes H.264/AVC video streams in the compressed domain. (This is also the reason, why you did not find anyting about the pixel-domain in the context of codoan). The current features are:
>> - Change/event detection (i.e., dectecting in a video stream if something happens in the scene)
>> - Moving object detection and segmentation (i.e., extraction of shape or bounding box for a moving object in a video stream)
>> - Foreground/background segmentation (very similar to moving object segmentation, since detected objects are regarded as foreground)
>> For the next release, we plan to implement:
>> - Moving object tracking (i.e., matching of segmented objects from frame to frame in a video stream)
>>
>> I thought that the features of this asset were also well explained in the two FI-PPP Software Architects weeks (e.g., what can be done in the compressed domain and where are the limitations), but maybe I was wrong. I will also check, where the desription of our asset on the wiki can be improved. I will come back to you on that. (I am afraid there is no notification functionality in the wiki.)
>
> Unfortunately, most people that I talked to seem not to be interested in
> this part (except maybe, as an early filter) but they all require
> analysis in the pixel domain. So my email was not about this part at all.
>
>> I believe a major source of confusion is also, that the Multimedia Analysis GE includes two assets:
>> 1) the "codoan" asset (Siemens): an analysis tool for H.264 video streams,
>> 2) the "White Diamond" asset (Telecom Italia): an Multimedia Analysis Broker, that orchestrates different analysis components.
>
>> White Diamond is not planned for Release 1 of FI-WARE, therefore the
>> description might not be as concrete as for the other asset. Maybe a
>> way to resolve the confusion is to better separate the features of
>> the two assets. I will discuss this inside FI-WARE.
>
> As you say below, its all about avoiding duplication of work and that is
> the background of my email. I wanted to know what is coming so we do not
> put a lot of money in the OpenCall into something that will be available
> in the Release 2. So knowing what will be coming is essential. This
> seems to be related to White Diamond but I cannot find anything
> substantial about it or to what degree its features would become
> available as a GE.
>
>> On my comment for the "Streaming" GE: My only intent was to avoid
>> duplication of work. I fully agree with you that analysis tools
>> usually address a specific usage area. codoan was origionally
>> designed for the surveillance domain (e.g., as addressed by
>> SAFECITY). If you believe that the functionality offered by codoan
>> (i.e., as realized as low-complexity compressed-domain analysis) is
>> not sufficient for your purposes in the content domain (e.g., if you
>> want to do image analysis, not video analysis, or if you need
>> analysis of uncompressed material), please keep the requirement in
>> the Open Call. However, here we should be more precise what we
>> exactly demand.
>
> What I got from the discussions with SAFECITY in the AB is that their
> main requirements are for analysis in the pixel-domain (but they may be
> able to take advantage of the compressed domain as a early filter). But
> maybe I am wrong.
>
> They are monitoring a crowded street and as far as I can tell there is
> very little you can do in the compressed domain in this situation. As a
> result I am still surprised and confused why pixel-domain analysis seems
> to have such a low priority in this GE. BTW, the info on the UC
> requirements has been available (at various levels of refinement) for
> about one years now from the UCs. I just say that to point out that the
> communication seems not to work too well here.
>
> Sorry, that I single you out in this conversation. It is not meant
> personally, your mail just trigger a reaction to long standing key
> issues. Media (really "image/video"!) analysis is maybe one of the most
> discussed topics in the AB (besides streaming) and it seems to highlight
> a lot of the things that we need to improve on.
>
>> On your comment on the "UC backlog": I agree, the search interface is
>> not optimal. I also agree that accepted UC tickets should be
>> reflected in the wiki. This has been done for codoan, i.e., the
>> "object tracking" request from SAFECITY has become an Epic in the
>> wiki already some time ago. (Maybe I should not have mentioned this
>> resource in my mail.) Non-accepted UC tickets are not reflected. I
>> guess this a topic for the AB. I encourage you to discuss this in the
>> AB.
>
> Good point, thanks! Can we put this on to our agenda for our next meeting?
>
>> If there are "permission denied" links: I hope such things can be
>> resolved easily. I guess this also is something for the AB, if there
>> is a general problem.
>
> Thanks.
>
>> I am sorry, if I upset you with my mail. I did not mean to.
>
> No problem.
>
>
> Best,
>
> Philipp
>
>> Kind regards
>> Peter
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> However, White Diamond is not planned for the first release therefore
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Philipp Slusallek [mailto:slusallek at dfki.de]
>>> Sent: Freitag, 20. Juli 2012 07:43
>>> To: Amon, Peter
>>> Cc: Sofia Tsekeridou; fiware-streaming at lists.fi-ware.eu; ab at fi-ppp.eu
>>> Subject: Re: [Fiware-streaming] Fiware-streaming Digest, Vol 4, Issue 3
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Thank you very much, Peter.
>>>
>>> This brief discussion about finding out more what is in a GE is touching
>>> on fundamental issues of collaboration between FI-WARE, the AB, and the
>>> UC projects -- for a topic that is of high importance to many UCs and
>>> which has been discussed extensively in the AB. So allow me to raise
>>> this conversation to the attention of the AB.
>>>
>>>
>>> In your answer to my question trying to find out what is coming in terms
>>> of pixel-level media analysis you simply refer me to the Wiki in general
>>> terms. I happen to know about the information sources in the FI-PPP. As
>>> we all know they are not perfect. The Product Vision is extremely high
>>> level and promises the moon, but as we found out in Madrid, we seem to
>>> be getting much less. Trying to find out what this is, is important as
>>> other work in the UCs will be based on what we will get and not on what
>>> is in the vision.
>>>
>>> Let me tell you that I did read all the documentation on multimedia
>>> analysis in quite some detail a while ago (it's an area that is
>>> important to our work). After our discussion in Madrid, my question has
>>> been more than fair. There you essentially said that pixel-domain
>>> processing would not come and we only found out later that there will be
>>> something but that there is no information on this yet on the Wiki.
>>>
>>> Since there is no way I can get notified (as far as I know) when Wiki
>>> specifications change for GEs that are relevant to me, I expect a
>>> reasonable answer to my question and not a "you find it on the Web". How
>>> about simply sending us a URL to the relevant sections, instead of
>>> listing all the high-level info we all know perfectly well. As you see,
>>> I am getting a bit upset here -- and I apologize for this.
>>>
>>> Back to my questions: You have criticized the definition of our new GEs
>>> in the sense that they cover things that will be coming in the existing
>>> GEs. This would be fair -- IF there is enough info about what is coming
>>> so that we can even know about it and plan accordingly. We have very
>>> concrete use cases that we must implement and so need very concrete info
>>> about what will be offered. Simply saying "there will be moving object
>>> segmentation" is like saying nothing in the context of multimedia
>>> analysis. As we all know, there are tons of algorithms and each one only
>>> works for some specific scenarios. Without knowing in more detail what
>>> type of algorithms is being used and how this can be tweaked to work
>>> with various types of objects and environments, it is mostly useless to
>>> someone who wants to apply your GE.
>>>
>>> In this concrete case: In response to your email, this morning I did
>>> search through all of the parts of the FI-WARE Wiki relevant to
>>> multimedia analysis in search for more details about pixel-level
>>> analysis. I found NOTHING! (that I had not seen before and which was not
>>> adequate). OK, maybe I missed it -- which is even not unlikely. But that
>>> is exactly why sending me a concrete link as an answer would have been
>>> so much more helpful.
>>>
>>> So may I politely ask again for more detailed information about what
>>> will be coming in terms of pixel-level analysis?
>>>
>>> As a side note: It often has helped to look at the documentation of the
>>> base assets to guess what will be supported. In this context, I "love"
>>> the description of the "baseline assets" for multimedia analysis: codoan
>>> is described as a proprietary tool and it refers to the vision for more
>>> details (which are obviously not there) and White Diamond has two links
>>> to more details for both of which I still get a "permission denied"
>>> error. You are certainly not making it easy to find out details.
>>>
>>> Also, you mention that there is info in the tickets about changes to the
>>> GE. May I politely ask that accepted requests that modify what is in the
>>> GE specs get integrated into the description of the GE with links back
>>> to their discussion in the tickets (we are on the Web after all). I
>>> would even strongly suggest to link to refused requests such that people
>>> do not ask for these things again. You cannot reasonably expect people
>>> to search the ticket data base (with its sub-optimal search interface)
>>> and wade through tickets to find out about things that may or will be in
>>> a GE.
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Philipp
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 19.07.2012 22:19, schrieb Amon, Peter:
>>>> a good source for such a description is the Epic and Feature overview
>>> for this GE, to be found under "Materializing the FI-WARE vision" on the
>>> FI-WARE Wiki. Since recently also "Release 0" Features were added (like
>>> for all FI-WARE GEs), this should give a complete picture of the
>>> functionality for the GE.
>>>>
>>>> An additional source is the UC backlog, especially those tickets labeled
>>> "Accepted for Inclusion in FI-WARE Backlog", since these indicate future
>>> planning for this GE. Here, requirements from UC projects (e.g., provided
>>> by Sofia in the case of MMA) were discussed and included into the
>>> development process for FI-WARE GEs.
>>>>
>>>> Finally, "FI-WARE Product Vision" and "FI-WARE Architecture and Open
>>> Specifications" (both on the FI-WARE Wiki) give a more general overview
>>> for FI-WARE GEs. However, in the case of the Multimedia Analysis GE it
>>> includes properties of both, the "codoan" asset by Siemens and the "White
>>> Diamond" asset from Telecom Italia.
>>>>
>>>> Kind regards
>>>> Peter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: fiware-streaming-bounces at lists.fi-ware.eu [mailto:fiware-
>>> streaming-
>>>>> bounces at lists.fi-ware.eu] On Behalf Of Philipp Slusallek
>>>>> Sent: Donnerstag, 19. Juli 2012 13:04
>>>>> To: Sofia Tsekeridou
>>>>> Cc: fiware-streaming at lists.fi-ware.eu
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Fiware-streaming] Fiware-streaming Digest, Vol 4, Issue 3
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> Am 19.07.2012 12:51, schrieb Sofia Tsekeridou:
>>>>>> With respect to the moving object segmentation and tracking
>>>>>> capabilities of the Multimedia Analysis GE, is it possible to also
>>>>>> extract information about the movement? E.g. direction of movement,
>>>>>> speed, or generally movement statistics along with e.g. shape of the
>>>>>> moving object, etc.? Is it also possible to identify rigid versus
>>>>>> non-rigid moving objects (e.g. cars versus persons)? These may be
>>>>>> better evaluated in the pixel domain than in the compressed domain.
>>>>>> What do you think?
>>>>>
>>>>> Asked differently, is there a more detailed description of what to
>>>>> expect in this GE (as far as I remember there was no description of
>>> what
>>>>> is to come). This is relevant in the context that two of the new GEs
>>>>> will need high-performance, real-time, highly flexible, pixel-based
>>>>> analysis even on mobile platforms (at least for Augmented Reality).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>>
>>>>> Philipp
>>>>>
>>>>>> Many thanks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sofia
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ***************************************************
>>>>>> Dr. Sofia Tsekeridou
>>>>>> Assistant Professor
>>>>>> Head of Multimedia, Knowledge and Web Technologies Research Area
>>>>>> Athens Information Technology - AIT
>>>>>> 0.8 km Markopoulou Ave.
>>>>>> 19002 Peania, Athens, GREECE
>>>>>> Tel.: +302106682804, Fax: +302106682703
>>>>>> E-mail: sots at ait.gr
>>>>>> sofia at ieee.org
>>>>>> Web: http://www.ait.gr/ait_web_site/faculty/sots/tsekeridou.html
>>>>>> ***************************************************
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>>> From: fiware-streaming-bounces at lists.fi-ware.eu [fiware-streaming-
>>>>> bounces at lists.fi-ware.eu] on behalf of fiware-streaming-
>>> request at lists.fi-
>>>>> ware.eu [fiware-streaming-request at lists.fi-ware.eu]
>>>>>> Sent: 19 July 2012 13:00
>>>>>> To: fiware-streaming at lists.fi-ware.eu
>>>>>> Subject: Fiware-streaming Digest, Vol 4, Issue 3
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Send Fiware-streaming mailing list submissions to
>>>>>> fiware-streaming at lists.fi-ware.eu
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>>>>> http://lists.fi-ware.eu/listinfo/fiware-streaming
>>>>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>>>>> fiware-streaming-request at lists.fi-ware.eu
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>>>>> fiware-streaming-owner at lists.fi-ware.eu
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>>>>> than "Re: Contents of Fiware-streaming digest..."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Today's Topics:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. Re: FI-WARE streaming updates (Amon, Peter)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Message: 1
>>>>>> Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 23:15:44 +0200
>>>>>> From: "Amon, Peter" <p.amon at siemens.com>
>>>>>> To: Mischler Denis <denis.mischler at technicolor.com>, "ab at fi-ppp.eu"
>>>>>> <ab at fi-ppp.eu>, "fiware-streaming at lists.fi-ware.eu"
>>>>>> <fiware-streaming at lists.fi-ware.eu>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Fiware-streaming] FI-WARE streaming updates
>>>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> <EDDE8D0FEF8B6B4AA50AC1AC8BB744DE03A409DE3A at DEMCHP99E35MSX.ww902.siemens.n
>>>>> et>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Denis, all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> thanks for the new version of the document!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just one comment on FIWARE.EPIC.STEAMING.GENERIC_PROCESSING: "Moving
>>>>> object segmentation" (and to some extent also "Foreground/background
>>>>> estimation" and "Moving object identification") is supported by the
>>> codoan
>>>>> asset realizing part of the Multimedia Analysis GE. "Moving object
>>>>> tracking" is planned for future releases of this GE. Therefore, I doubt
>>>>> that we should ask for these functionalities in an Open Call.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My proposal:
>>>>>> - Remove "Moving object segmentation" and "Foreground/background
>>>>> estimation"
>>>>>> - Remove "Moving object identification (person, car, animal, suitcase,
>>>>> etc.) and tracking" and add instead "Object identification (person, car,
>>>>> animal, suitcase, etc.)"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for considering the proposal.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kind regards
>>>>>> Peter
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>> From: fiware-streaming-bounces at lists.fi-ware.eu [mailto:fiware-
>>>>> streaming-bounces at lists.fi-ware.eu] On Behalf Of Mischler Denis
>>>>>> Sent: Mittwoch, 18. Juli 2012 11:31
>>>>>> To: ab at fi-ppp.eu; fiware-streaming at lists.fi-ware.eu
>>>>>> Subject: [Fiware-streaming] FI-WARE streaming updates
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>> here a few updates in the streaming document (track changes mode)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Added requirements about multi view (FI-CONTENT Telecom Italia)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Charging and Payment : used the word "Service Data logging".
>>>>> (only a vocabulary correction)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Added a storage EPIC to be decided about (here or in the
>>> Storage
>>>>> Enabler) and completed if "yes".
>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>> Denis Mischler
>>>>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>>>>> URL: <http://lists.fi-ware.eu/private/fiware-
>>>>> streaming/attachments/20120718/dfdb0349/attachment-0001.html>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Fiware-streaming mailing list
>>>>>> Fiware-streaming at lists.fi-ware.eu
>>>>>> http://lists.fi-ware.eu/listinfo/fiware-streaming
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> End of Fiware-streaming Digest, Vol 4, Issue 3
>>>>>> **********************************************
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Fiware-streaming mailing list
>>>>>> Fiware-streaming at lists.fi-ware.eu
>>>>>> http://lists.fi-ware.eu/listinfo/fiware-streaming
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> --
>>>>> Deutsches Forschungszentrum f?r K?nstliche Intelligenz (DFKI) GmbH
>>>>> Trippstadter Strasse 122, D-67663 Kaiserslautern
>>>>>
>>>>> Gesch?ftsf?hrung:
>>>>> Prof. Dr. Dr. h.c. mult. Wolfgang Wahlster (Vorsitzender)
>>>>> Dr. Walter Olthoff
>>>>> Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats:
>>>>> Prof. Dr. h.c. Hans A. Aukes
>>>>>
>>>>> Sitz der Gesellschaft: Kaiserslautern (HRB 2313)
>>>>> USt-Id.Nr.: DE 148646973, Steuernummer: 19/673/0060/3
>>>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> ---
>>>>> -
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Deutsches Forschungszentrum f?r K?nstliche Intelligenz (DFKI) GmbH
>>> Trippstadter Strasse 122, D-67663 Kaiserslautern
>>>
>>> Gesch?ftsf?hrung:
>>> Prof. Dr. Dr. h.c. mult. Wolfgang Wahlster (Vorsitzender)
>>> Dr. Walter Olthoff
>>> Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats:
>>> Prof. Dr. h.c. Hans A. Aukes
>>>
>>> Sitz der Gesellschaft: Kaiserslautern (HRB 2313)
>>> USt-Id.Nr.: DE 148646973, Steuernummer: 19/673/0060/3
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ab mailing list
>> Ab at fi-ppp.eu
>> http://lists.fi-ppp.eu/mailman/listinfo/ab
>>
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 14:01:20 +0000
> From: Sofia Tsekeridou <sots at ait.gr>
> To: Amon, Peter ?[p.amon at siemens.com]? <p.amon at siemens.com>, "Philipp
> Slusallek [slusallek at dfki.de]" <slusallek at dfki.de>
> Cc: "ab at fi-ppp.eu" <ab at fi-ppp.eu>, "fiware-streaming at lists.fi-ware.eu"
> <fiware-streaming at lists.fi-ware.eu>
> Subject: Re: [Fiware-streaming] Fiware-streaming Digest, Vol 4, Issue
> 3
> Message-ID:
> <7E1E497D42E76D4CBCE2F89399107D1E28CD4B26 at AMSPRD0204MB111.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1256"
>
> Dear Peter, Philipp, all,
>
> To contribute to the discussion further, I agree with Philipp that if more detailed information for Fiware GEs is provided and the means to be notified and easily locate the changes introduced by Fiware developers, then it will be easier for Use Case projects to assess what further requirements are posed from their side for a full Fiware-enabled implementation of their envisioned applications. Of course, this is not only the case for the Multimedia Analysis GE, as Philipp mentioned, but of the majority of GEs descriptions and the updating of their status and plans for future releases.
>
> Coming now to the specific issues of the Streaming GE WG and their additional requirements with respect to content analysis and processing (video, image, audio, 3D), I suggest that I make a first attempt to update the description in the latest version of the Streaming GE document based on the updated information that Peter has mentioned on the Multimedia Analysis GE, both codoan and White Diamond, so as to reflect requirements that are not currently addressed by the latter by next Tuesday. Then the Streaming WG as well as Peter or other Fiware representatives could potentially comment/contribute further.
>
> On the above, I agree with Philipp that requirements are very much dependent on the exact algorithms used as well as their performance/accuracy of detection per different context of use. Thus, such descriptions and experiments results under which contexts of use/deployment should be added in the Multimedia Analysis GE. This way we will better what additional algorithmic requirements we should ask for. I hereby quote a respective question/request for feedback that I have posted on the Fusion Forge tool - Peter could you please respond to it?
>
> -----------------------------
> Date: 2012-07-05 13:37
> Sender: Sofia Tsekeridou
>
> As discussed during the training week in June 2012 in Madrid, the following additional functionalities will be desirable to be available in Fiware Release 1 of the Multimedia Analysis GE:
> 1. Video decoding/re-encoding/transcoding/streaming
> 2. Person detection (perhaps also face?)
> Furthermore, a usage manual for the Multimedia Analysis GE with respect to algorithm parameters definition, value ranges, and contexts/constraints of use (e.g. camera settings, lightning conditions, indoor/outdoor settings, etc.), including performance information (how many camera streams can be processed in parallel, execution times, computing and memory needs, accuracy rates, etc.) will be much appreciated along with the 1st Release.
> Finally, we have discussed on using the Multimedia Analysis GE on the SafeCity Gateway during the real-life trials in Madrid in February 2013. Is it possible to get access to the respective code to do so as well as installation instructions? If yes, when will it be available? The issue is that it will be very bandwidth demanding to stream up to 4 HD compressed camera feeds to the Internet to have them processed by the Multimedia Analysis GE residing at the Seville testbed.
> ------------------------------
>
> Many thanks in advance!
>
> With warm regards,
>
> Sofia
> ***************************************************
> Dr. Sofia Tsekeridou
> Assistant Professor
> Head of Multimedia, Knowledge and Web Technologies Research Area
> Athens Information Technology - AIT
> 0.8 km Markopoulou Ave.
> 19002 Peania, Athens, GREECE
> Tel.: +302106682804, Fax: +302106682703
> E-mail: sots at ait.gr
> sofia at ieee.org
> Web: http://www.ait.gr/ait_web_site/faculty/sots/tsekeridou.html
> ***************************************************
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ab-bounces at fi-ppp.eu [mailto:ab-bounces at fi-ppp.eu] On Behalf Of Philipp Slusallek
> Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 3:00 PM
> To: Amon, Peter
> Cc: ab at fi-ppp.eu; fiware-streaming at lists.fi-ware.eu
> Subject: Re: [FI-PPP AB] [Fiware-streaming] Fiware-streaming Digest, Vol 4, Issue 3
>
> Hi,
>
> Am 20.07.2012 10:53, schrieb Amon, Peter:
>> Therefore, let me describe the properties of the "codoan" asset directly: codoan analyzes H.264/AVC video streams in the compressed domain. (This is also the reason, why you did not find anyting about the pixel-domain in the context of codoan). The current features are:
>> - Change/event detection (i.e., dectecting in a video stream if
>> something happens in the scene)
>> - Moving object detection and segmentation (i.e., extraction of shape
>> or bounding box for a moving object in a video stream)
>> - Foreground/background segmentation (very similar to moving object
>> segmentation, since detected objects are regarded as foreground) For the next release, we plan to implement:
>> - Moving object tracking (i.e., matching of segmented objects from
>> frame to frame in a video stream)
>>
>> I thought that the features of this asset were also well explained in
>> the two FI-PPP Software Architects weeks (e.g., what can be done in
>> the compressed domain and where are the limitations), but maybe I was
>> wrong. I will also check, where the desription of our asset on the
>> wiki can be improved. I will come back to you on that. (I am afraid
>> there is no notification functionality in the wiki.)
>
> Unfortunately, most people that I talked to seem not to be interested in this part (except maybe, as an early filter) but they all require analysis in the pixel domain. So my email was not about this part at all.
>
>> I believe a major source of confusion is also, that the Multimedia Analysis GE includes two assets:
>> 1) the "codoan" asset (Siemens): an analysis tool for H.264 video
>> streams,
>> 2) the "White Diamond" asset (Telecom Italia): an Multimedia Analysis Broker, that orchestrates different analysis components.
>
>> White Diamond is not planned for Release 1 of FI-WARE, therefore the
>> description might not be as concrete as for the other asset. Maybe a
>> way to resolve the confusion is to better separate the features of the
>> two assets. I will discuss this inside FI-WARE.
>
> As you say below, its all about avoiding duplication of work and that is the background of my email. I wanted to know what is coming so we do not put a lot of money in the OpenCall into something that will be available in the Release 2. So knowing what will be coming is essential. This seems to be related to White Diamond but I cannot find anything substantial about it or to what degree its features would become available as a GE.
>
>> On my comment for the "Streaming" GE: My only intent was to avoid
>> duplication of work. I fully agree with you that analysis tools
>> usually address a specific usage area. codoan was origionally designed
>> for the surveillance domain (e.g., as addressed by SAFECITY). If you
>> believe that the functionality offered by codoan (i.e., as realized as
>> low-complexity compressed-domain analysis) is not sufficient for your
>> purposes in the content domain (e.g., if you want to do image
>> analysis, not video analysis, or if you need analysis of uncompressed
>> material), please keep the requirement in the Open Call. However, here
>> we should be more precise what we exactly demand.
>
> What I got from the discussions with SAFECITY in the AB is that their main requirements are for analysis in the pixel-domain (but they may be able to take advantage of the compressed domain as a early filter). But maybe I am wrong.
>
> They are monitoring a crowded street and as far as I can tell there is very little you can do in the compressed domain in this situation. As a result I am still surprised and confused why pixel-domain analysis seems to have such a low priority in this GE. BTW, the info on the UC requirements has been available (at various levels of refinement) for about one years now from the UCs. I just say that to point out that the communication seems not to work too well here.
>
> Sorry, that I single you out in this conversation. It is not meant personally, your mail just trigger a reaction to long standing key issues. Media (really "image/video"!) analysis is maybe one of the most discussed topics in the AB (besides streaming) and it seems to highlight a lot of the things that we need to improve on.
>
>> On your comment on the "UC backlog": I agree, the search interface is
>> not optimal. I also agree that accepted UC tickets should be reflected
>> in the wiki. This has been done for codoan, i.e., the "object
>> tracking" request from SAFECITY has become an Epic in the wiki already
>> some time ago. (Maybe I should not have mentioned this resource in my
>> mail.) Non-accepted UC tickets are not reflected. I guess this a topic
>> for the AB. I encourage you to discuss this in the AB.
>
> Good point, thanks! Can we put this on to our agenda for our next meeting?
>
>> If there are "permission denied" links: I hope such things can be
>> resolved easily. I guess this also is something for the AB, if there
>> is a general problem.
>
> Thanks.
>
>> I am sorry, if I upset you with my mail. I did not mean to.
>
> No problem.
>
>
> Best,
>
> Philipp
>
>> Kind regards
>> Peter
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> However, White Diamond is not planned for the first release therefore
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Philipp Slusallek [mailto:slusallek at dfki.de]
>>> Sent: Freitag, 20. Juli 2012 07:43
>>> To: Amon, Peter
>>> Cc: Sofia Tsekeridou; fiware-streaming at lists.fi-ware.eu; ab at fi-ppp.eu
>>> Subject: Re: [Fiware-streaming] Fiware-streaming Digest, Vol 4, Issue
>>> 3
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Thank you very much, Peter.
>>>
>>> This brief discussion about finding out more what is in a GE is
>>> touching on fundamental issues of collaboration between FI-WARE, the
>>> AB, and the UC projects -- for a topic that is of high importance to
>>> many UCs and which has been discussed extensively in the AB. So allow
>>> me to raise this conversation to the attention of the AB.
>>>
>>>
>>> In your answer to my question trying to find out what is coming in
>>> terms of pixel-level media analysis you simply refer me to the Wiki
>>> in general terms. I happen to know about the information sources in
>>> the FI-PPP. As we all know they are not perfect. The Product Vision
>>> is extremely high level and promises the moon, but as we found out in
>>> Madrid, we seem to be getting much less. Trying to find out what this
>>> is, is important as other work in the UCs will be based on what we
>>> will get and not on what is in the vision.
>>>
>>> Let me tell you that I did read all the documentation on multimedia
>>> analysis in quite some detail a while ago (it's an area that is
>>> important to our work). After our discussion in Madrid, my question
>>> has been more than fair. There you essentially said that pixel-domain
>>> processing would not come and we only found out later that there will
>>> be something but that there is no information on this yet on the Wiki.
>>>
>>> Since there is no way I can get notified (as far as I know) when Wiki
>>> specifications change for GEs that are relevant to me, I expect a
>>> reasonable answer to my question and not a "you find it on the Web".
>>> How about simply sending us a URL to the relevant sections, instead
>>> of listing all the high-level info we all know perfectly well. As you
>>> see, I am getting a bit upset here -- and I apologize for this.
>>>
>>> Back to my questions: You have criticized the definition of our new
>>> GEs in the sense that they cover things that will be coming in the
>>> existing GEs. This would be fair -- IF there is enough info about
>>> what is coming so that we can even know about it and plan
>>> accordingly. We have very concrete use cases that we must implement
>>> and so need very concrete info about what will be offered. Simply
>>> saying "there will be moving object segmentation" is like saying
>>> nothing in the context of multimedia analysis. As we all know, there
>>> are tons of algorithms and each one only works for some specific
>>> scenarios. Without knowing in more detail what type of algorithms is
>>> being used and how this can be tweaked to work with various types of
>>> objects and environments, it is mostly useless to someone who wants to apply your GE.
>>>
>>> In this concrete case: In response to your email, this morning I did
>>> search through all of the parts of the FI-WARE Wiki relevant to
>>> multimedia analysis in search for more details about pixel-level
>>> analysis. I found NOTHING! (that I had not seen before and which was
>>> not adequate). OK, maybe I missed it -- which is even not unlikely.
>>> But that is exactly why sending me a concrete link as an answer would
>>> have been so much more helpful.
>>>
>>> So may I politely ask again for more detailed information about what
>>> will be coming in terms of pixel-level analysis?
>>>
>>> As a side note: It often has helped to look at the documentation of
>>> the base assets to guess what will be supported. In this context, I "love"
>>> the description of the "baseline assets" for multimedia analysis:
>>> codoan is described as a proprietary tool and it refers to the vision
>>> for more details (which are obviously not there) and White Diamond
>>> has two links to more details for both of which I still get a "permission denied"
>>> error. You are certainly not making it easy to find out details.
>>>
>>> Also, you mention that there is info in the tickets about changes to
>>> the GE. May I politely ask that accepted requests that modify what is
>>> in the GE specs get integrated into the description of the GE with
>>> links back to their discussion in the tickets (we are on the Web
>>> after all). I would even strongly suggest to link to refused requests
>>> such that people do not ask for these things again. You cannot
>>> reasonably expect people to search the ticket data base (with its
>>> sub-optimal search interface) and wade through tickets to find out
>>> about things that may or will be in a GE.
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Philipp
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 19.07.2012 22:19, schrieb Amon, Peter:
>>>> a good source for such a description is the Epic and Feature
>>>> overview
>>> for this GE, to be found under "Materializing the FI-WARE vision" on
>>> the FI-WARE Wiki. Since recently also "Release 0" Features were added
>>> (like for all FI-WARE GEs), this should give a complete picture of
>>> the functionality for the GE.
>>>>
>>>> An additional source is the UC backlog, especially those tickets
>>>> labeled
>>> "Accepted for Inclusion in FI-WARE Backlog", since these indicate
>>> future planning for this GE. Here, requirements from UC projects
>>> (e.g., provided by Sofia in the case of MMA) were discussed and
>>> included into the development process for FI-WARE GEs.
>>>>
>>>> Finally, "FI-WARE Product Vision" and "FI-WARE Architecture and Open
>>> Specifications" (both on the FI-WARE Wiki) give a more general
>>> overview for FI-WARE GEs. However, in the case of the Multimedia
>>> Analysis GE it includes properties of both, the "codoan" asset by
>>> Siemens and the "White Diamond" asset from Telecom Italia.
>>>>
>>>> Kind regards
>>>> Peter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: fiware-streaming-bounces at lists.fi-ware.eu [mailto:fiware-
>>> streaming-
>>>>> bounces at lists.fi-ware.eu] On Behalf Of Philipp Slusallek
>>>>> Sent: Donnerstag, 19. Juli 2012 13:04
>>>>> To: Sofia Tsekeridou
>>>>> Cc: fiware-streaming at lists.fi-ware.eu
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Fiware-streaming] Fiware-streaming Digest, Vol 4,
>>>>> Issue 3
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> Am 19.07.2012 12:51, schrieb Sofia Tsekeridou:
>>>>>> With respect to the moving object segmentation and tracking
>>>>>> capabilities of the Multimedia Analysis GE, is it possible to also
>>>>>> extract information about the movement? E.g. direction of
>>>>>> movement, speed, or generally movement statistics along with e.g.
>>>>>> shape of the moving object, etc.? Is it also possible to identify
>>>>>> rigid versus non-rigid moving objects (e.g. cars versus persons)?
>>>>>> These may be better evaluated in the pixel domain than in the compressed domain.
>>>>>> What do you think?
>>>>>
>>>>> Asked differently, is there a more detailed description of what to
>>>>> expect in this GE (as far as I remember there was no description of
>>> what
>>>>> is to come). This is relevant in the context that two of the new
>>>>> GEs will need high-performance, real-time, highly flexible,
>>>>> pixel-based analysis even on mobile platforms (at least for Augmented Reality).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>>
>>>>> Philipp
>>>>>
>>>>>> Many thanks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sofia
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ***************************************************
>>>>>> Dr. Sofia Tsekeridou
>>>>>> Assistant Professor
>>>>>> Head of Multimedia, Knowledge and Web Technologies Research Area
>>>>>> Athens Information Technology - AIT
>>>>>> 0.8 km Markopoulou Ave.
>>>>>> 19002 Peania, Athens, GREECE
>>>>>> Tel.: +302106682804, Fax: +302106682703
>>>>>> E-mail: sots at ait.gr
>>>>>> sofia at ieee.org
>>>>>> Web: http://www.ait.gr/ait_web_site/faculty/sots/tsekeridou.html
>>>>>> ***************************************************
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>>> From: fiware-streaming-bounces at lists.fi-ware.eu [fiware-streaming-
>>>>> bounces at lists.fi-ware.eu] on behalf of fiware-streaming-
>>> request at lists.fi-
>>>>> ware.eu [fiware-streaming-request at lists.fi-ware.eu]
>>>>>> Sent: 19 July 2012 13:00
>>>>>> To: fiware-streaming at lists.fi-ware.eu
>>>>>> Subject: Fiware-streaming Digest, Vol 4, Issue 3
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Send Fiware-streaming mailing list submissions to
>>>>>> fiware-streaming at lists.fi-ware.eu
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>>>>> http://lists.fi-ware.eu/listinfo/fiware-streaming
>>>>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>>>>> fiware-streaming-request at lists.fi-ware.eu
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>>>>> fiware-streaming-owner at lists.fi-ware.eu
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more
>>>>>> specific than "Re: Contents of Fiware-streaming digest..."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Today's Topics:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. Re: FI-WARE streaming updates (Amon, Peter)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> ----
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Message: 1
>>>>>> Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 23:15:44 +0200
>>>>>> From: "Amon, Peter" <p.amon at siemens.com>
>>>>>> To: Mischler Denis <denis.mischler at technicolor.com>, "ab at fi-ppp.eu"
>>>>>> <ab at fi-ppp.eu>, "fiware-streaming at lists.fi-ware.eu"
>>>>>> <fiware-streaming at lists.fi-ware.eu>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Fiware-streaming] FI-WARE streaming updates
>>>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> <EDDE8D0FEF8B6B4AA50AC1AC8BB744DE03A409DE3A at DEMCHP99E35MSX.ww902.siem
>>> ens.n
>>>>> et>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Denis, all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> thanks for the new version of the document!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just one comment on FIWARE.EPIC.STEAMING.GENERIC_PROCESSING:
>>>>>> "Moving
>>>>> object segmentation" (and to some extent also
>>>>> "Foreground/background estimation" and "Moving object
>>>>> identification") is supported by the
>>> codoan
>>>>> asset realizing part of the Multimedia Analysis GE. "Moving object
>>>>> tracking" is planned for future releases of this GE. Therefore, I
>>>>> doubt that we should ask for these functionalities in an Open Call.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My proposal:
>>>>>> - Remove "Moving object segmentation" and "Foreground/background
>>>>> estimation"
>>>>>> - Remove "Moving object identification (person, car, animal,
>>>>>> suitcase,
>>>>> etc.) and tracking" and add instead "Object identification (person,
>>>>> car, animal, suitcase, etc.)"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for considering the proposal.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kind regards
>>>>>> Peter
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>> From: fiware-streaming-bounces at lists.fi-ware.eu [mailto:fiware-
>>>>> streaming-bounces at lists.fi-ware.eu] On Behalf Of Mischler Denis
>>>>>> Sent: Mittwoch, 18. Juli 2012 11:31
>>>>>> To: ab at fi-ppp.eu; fiware-streaming at lists.fi-ware.eu
>>>>>> Subject: [Fiware-streaming] FI-WARE streaming updates
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>> here a few updates in the streaming document (track changes
>>>>>> mode)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Added requirements about multi view (FI-CONTENT Telecom Italia)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Charging and Payment : used the word "Service Data logging".
>>>>> (only a vocabulary correction)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Added a storage EPIC to be decided about (here or in the
>>> Storage
>>>>> Enabler) and completed if "yes".
>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>> Denis Mischler
>>>>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was
>>>>>> scrubbed...
>>>>>> URL: <http://lists.fi-ware.eu/private/fiware-
>>>>> streaming/attachments/20120718/dfdb0349/attachment-0001.html>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Fiware-streaming mailing list
>>>>>> Fiware-streaming at lists.fi-ware.eu
>>>>>> http://lists.fi-ware.eu/listinfo/fiware-streaming
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> End of Fiware-streaming Digest, Vol 4, Issue 3
>>>>>> **********************************************
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Fiware-streaming mailing list
>>>>>> Fiware-streaming at lists.fi-ware.eu
>>>>>> http://lists.fi-ware.eu/listinfo/fiware-streaming
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
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>>> Sitz der Gesellschaft: Kaiserslautern (HRB 2313)
>>> USt-Id.Nr.: DE 148646973, Steuernummer: 19/673/0060/3
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>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ab mailing list
>> Ab at fi-ppp.eu
>> http://lists.fi-ppp.eu/mailman/listinfo/ab
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Fiware-streaming mailing list
> Fiware-streaming at lists.fi-ware.eu
> http://lists.fi-ware.eu/listinfo/fiware-streaming
>
>
> End of Fiware-streaming Digest, Vol 4, Issue 6
> **********************************************
>
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> Fiware-streaming mailing list
> Fiware-streaming at lists.fi-ware.eu
> http://lists.fi-ware.eu/listinfo/fiware-streaming
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Trippstadter Strasse 122, D-67663 Kaiserslautern
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Prof. Dr. Dr. h.c. mult. Wolfgang Wahlster (Vorsitzender)
Dr. Walter Olthoff
Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats:
Prof. Dr. h.c. Hans A. Aukes
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