[Fiware-miwi] 13:00 meeting location: CIE (Re: Oulu meet today 13:00)

Tomi Sarni tomi.sarni at cyberlightning.com
Fri Oct 25 10:37:00 CEST 2013


And yes this is entirely another discussion :) sorry about off topic spam


On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 11:34 AM, Tomi Sarni
<tomi.sarni at cyberlightning.com>wrote:

> Yes I agree in general. Just  a thought that in some use-cases this could
> be thought as an option. It has been difficult to design the API in a way
> that it would be highly dynamic in a sense that it would suite wide variety
> of application development needs.
> The NGSI 9/10<http://forge.fi-ware.eu/plugins/mediawiki/wiki/fiware/index.php/NGSI-9/NGSI-10_information_model>development in earlier GE seemed difficult to adapt and in my personal
> opinnion does allow passing interaction interface clearly enough for the
> application developer.
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 11:28 AM, Philipp Slusallek <
> Philipp.Slusallek at dfki.de> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> With interaction I mean the user interaction. Yes, it eventually gets
>> mapped to REST (or such) calls to the device. But how you map the device
>> functionality to user interaction is a big step where different applicatios
>> will have very different assumptions and interaction metaphors. Mapping
>> them all to ageneric sensor model seems very difficult.
>>
>> Using a sematic annotation avoid having to create such a mapping when you
>> design the sensor, avoid having to store the model on each sonsor, and
>> pushes the mapping to the software/application side,which is (in my
>> opinion) in a much better option to decide on that mapping. A fallback
>> mapping may still be provided by the sensor for the most basic cases.
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>>         Philipp
>>
>> Am 25.10.2013 09:05, schrieb Tomi Sarni:
>>
>>> /It becomes more of an issue when we talk about interactivity, when the
>>>
>>> visual representation needs to react to user input in a way that is
>>> consistent with the application and calls functionality in the
>>> application. In other words, you have to do a mapping from the sensor to
>>> the application at some point along the pipeline (and back for actions
>>> to be performed by an actuator)./
>>>
>>>
>>> Currently when a client polls a device(containing sensor and/or
>>> actuators) it will receive all interaction options that available for
>>> the  particular sensor or actuator. These options can be then accessed
>>> by a HTTP POST method from the service. So there is the logical mapping.
>>> I can see your point though, in a way it would seem logical to have that
>>> XML3D model to contain states (e.g. button up and button down 3d model
>>> states), and i have no idea whether this is supported by XML3D, as i
>>> have been busy on server/sensor side.  This way when a sensor is being
>>> accesses by HTTP POST call to change state to either on or off for
>>> instance, the XML3D model could contain transition logic to change
>>> appearance from one state to another. Alternatively there can be two
>>> models for two states. When the actuator is being queried it will return
>>> model that corresponds to its current state.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 9:29 AM, Philipp Slusallek
>>> <Philipp.Slusallek at dfki.de <mailto:Philipp.Slusallek@**dfki.de<Philipp.Slusallek at dfki.de>>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     Hi Tomi,
>>>
>>>     Yes, this is definitely an interesting option and when sensors offer
>>>     REST-ful interfaces, it should be almost trivial to add (once a
>>>     suitable and standardized way of how to find that data is specified.
>>>     At least it would provide a kind of default visualization in case no
>>>     other is available.
>>>
>>>     It becomes more of an issue when we talk about interactivity, when
>>>     the visual representation needs to react to user input in a way that
>>>     is consistent with the application and calls functionality in the
>>>     application. In other words, you have to do a mapping from the
>>>     sensor to the application at some point along the pipeline (and back
>>>     for actions to be performed by an actuator).
>>>
>>>     Either we specify the sensor type through some semantic means (a
>>>     simple tag in the simplest case, a full RDF/a graph in the best
>>>     case) and let the application choose how to represent it or we need
>>>     to find a way to map generic behavior of a default object to
>>>     application functionality. The first seems much easier to me as
>>>     application functionality is likely to vary much more than sensor
>>>     functionality. And semantic sensor description have been worked on
>>>     for a long time and are available on the market.
>>>
>>>     Of course, there are hybrid methods as well: A simple one would be
>>>     to include a URI/URL to a default model in the semantic sensor
>>>     description that then gets loaded either from the sensor through
>>>     REST (given some namespace there) or via the Web (again using some
>>>     namespace or search strategy). Then the application can always
>>>     inject its own mapping to what it thinks is the best mapping.
>>>
>>>
>>>     Best,
>>>
>>>              Philipp
>>>
>>>     Am 25.10.2013 07:52, schrieb Tomi Sarni:
>>>
>>>         *Following is completely on theoretical level:*
>>>
>>>         To mix things a little further i've been thinking about a
>>>         possibility to
>>>         store visual representation of sensors within the sensors
>>>         themselves.
>>>         Many sensor types allow HTTP POST/GET or even PUT/DELETE methods
>>>         (wrapped in SNMP/CoAP communication protocols for instance)
>>> which in
>>>         theory would allow sensor  subscribers to also publish
>>>         information in
>>>         sensors (e.g. upload an xml3d model). This approach could be
>>>         useful in
>>>         cases where these sensors would have different purposes of use.
>>>         But the
>>>         sensor may have very little space to use for the model from up
>>>         8-18 KB.
>>>         Also the web service can attach the models to IDs through use of
>>>         data
>>>         base. This is really just a pointer, perhaps there would be
>>>         use-cases
>>>         where the sensor visualization could be stored within the sensor
>>>         itself,
>>>         i think specifically some AR solutions could benefit from this.
>>>         But do
>>>         not let this mix up things, this perhaps reinforces the fact
>>>         that there
>>>         need to be overlaying middleware services that attach visual
>>>         representation based on their own needs. One service could use
>>>         different
>>>         3d representation for temperature sensor than another one.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>         On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 9:49 PM, Philipp Slusallek
>>>         <Philipp.Slusallek at dfki.de <mailto:Philipp.Slusallek@**dfki.de<Philipp.Slusallek at dfki.de>
>>> >
>>>          <mailto:Philipp.Slusallek at __df**ki.de <http://dfki.de>
>>>         <mailto:Philipp.Slusallek@**dfki.de <Philipp.Slusallek at dfki.de>>>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>              Hi,
>>>
>>>              OK, now I get it. This does make sense -- at least in a
>>> local
>>>              scenario, where the POI data (in this example) needs to be
>>>         stored
>>>              somewhere anyway and storing it in a component and then
>>>         generating
>>>              the appropriate visual component does make sense. Using web
>>>              components or a similar mechanism we could actually do the
>>>         same via
>>>              the DOM (as discussed for the general ECA sync before).
>>>
>>>              But even then you might actually not want to store all the
>>>         POI data
>>>              but only the part that really matter to the application
>>>         (there may
>>>              be much more data -- maybe not for POIs but potentially for
>>>         other
>>>              things).
>>>
>>>              Also in a distributed scenario, I am not so sure. In that
>>>         case you
>>>              might want to do that mapping on the server and only sync
>>> the
>>>              resulting data, maybe with reference back so you can still
>>>         interact
>>>              with the original data through a service call. That is the
>>> main
>>>              reason why I in general think of POI data and POI
>>>         representation as
>>>              separate entities.
>>>
>>>              Regarding terminology, I think it does make sense to
>>>         differntiate
>>>              between the 3D scene and the application state (that is not
>>>         directly
>>>              influencing the 3D rendering and interaction). While you
>>>         store them
>>>              within the same data entity (but in different components),
>>> they
>>>              still refer to quite different things and are operated on by
>>>              different parts of you program (e.g. the renderer only ever
>>>         touches
>>>              the "scene" data). We do the same within the XML3D core,
>>>         where we
>>>              attach renderer-specific data to DOM nodes and I believe
>>>         three.js
>>>              also does something similar within its data structures. At
>>>         the end,
>>>              you have to store these things somewhere and there are only
>>>         so many
>>>              way to implement it. The differences are not really that
>>> big.
>>>
>>>
>>>              Best,
>>>
>>>                       Philipp
>>>
>>>              Am 24.10.2013 19:24, schrieb Toni Alatalo:
>>>
>>>                  On 24 Oct 2013, at 19:24, Philipp Slusallek
>>>                  <Philipp.Slusallek at dfki.de
>>>         <mailto:Philipp.Slusallek@**dfki.de <Philipp.Slusallek at dfki.de>>
>>>         <mailto:Philipp.Slusallek at __df**ki.de <http://dfki.de>
>>>         <mailto:Philipp.Slusallek@**dfki.de <Philipp.Slusallek at dfki.de>
>>> >>
>>>                  <mailto:Philipp.Slusallek@
>>>         <mailto:Philipp.Slusallek@>__d**f__ki.de <http://df__ki.de> <
>>> http://dfki.de>
>>>
>>>
>>>                  <mailto:Philipp.Slusallek at __df**ki.de <http://dfki.de>
>>>         <mailto:Philipp.Slusallek@**dfki.de <Philipp.Slusallek at dfki.de>>>>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>                      Good discussion!
>>>
>>>
>>>                  I find so too — thanks for the questions and comments
>>>         and all! Now
>>>                  briefly about just one point:
>>>
>>>                      Am 24.10.2013 17:37, schrieb Toni Alatalo:
>>>
>>>                          integrates to the scene system too - for
>>>         example if a
>>>                          scene server
>>>                          queries POI services, does it then only use the
>>>         data to
>>>                          manipulate
>>>                          the scene using other non-POI components, or
>>>         does it
>>>                          often make sense
>>>                          also to include POI components in the scene so
>>>         that the
>>>                          clients get
>>>                          it too automatically with the scene sync and
>>>         can for
>>>                          example provide
>>>                          POI specific GUI tools. Ofc clients can query
>>> POI
>>>                          services directly
>>>                          too but this server centric setup is also one
>>>         scenario
>>>                          and there the
>>>                          scene integration might make sense.
>>>
>>>                      But I would say that there is a clear distinction
>>>         between
>>>                      the POI data
>>>                      (which you query from some service) and the
>>>         visualization or
>>>                      representation of the POI data. Maybe you are more
>>>         talking
>>>                      about the
>>>                      latter here. However, there really is an application
>>>                      dependent mapping
>>>                      from the POI data to its representation. Each
>>>         application
>>>                      may choose
>>>                      to present the same POI data in very different way
>>>         and its
>>>                      only this
>>>                      resulting representation that becomes part of the
>>>         scene.
>>>
>>>
>>>                  No I was not talking about visualization or
>>>         representations here
>>>                  but the
>>>                  POI data.
>>>
>>>                  non-POI in the above tried to refer to the whole which
>>>         covers
>>>                  visualisations etc :)
>>>
>>>                  Your last sentence may help to understand the
>>> confusion: in
>>>                  these posts
>>>                  I’ve been using the reX entity system terminology only
>>>         — hoping
>>>                  that it
>>>                  is clear to discuss that way and not mix terms (like
>>>         I’ve tried
>>>                  to do in
>>>                  some other threads).
>>>
>>>                  There ‘scene’ does not refer to a visual / graphical or
>>> any
>>>                  other type
>>>                  of scene. It does not refer to e.g. something like what
>>>         xml3d.js and
>>>                  three.js, or ogre, have as their Scene objects.
>>>
>>>                  It simply means the collection of all entities. There
>>> it is
>>>                  perfectly
>>>                  valid to any kind of data which does not end up to e.g.
>>> the
>>>                  visual scene
>>>                  — many components are like that.
>>>
>>>                  So in the above ‘only use the data to manipulate the
>>>         scene using
>>>                  other
>>>                  non-POI components’ was referring to for example
>>>         creation of Mesh
>>>                  components if some POI is to be visualised that way.
>>>         The mapping
>>>                  that
>>>                  you were discussing.
>>>
>>>                  But my point was not about that but about the POI data
>>>         itself —
>>>                  and the
>>>                  example about some end user GUI with a widget that
>>>         manipulates
>>>                  it. So it
>>>                  then gets automatically synchronised along with all the
>>>         other
>>>                  data in
>>>                  the application in a collaborative setting etc.
>>>
>>>                  Stepping out of the previous terminology, we could
>>> perhaps
>>>                  translate:
>>>                  ‘scene’ -> ‘application state’ and ‘scene server’ ->
>>>                  ‘synchronization
>>>                  server’.
>>>
>>>                  I hope this clarifies something — my apologies if not..
>>>
>>>                  Cheers,
>>>                  ~Toni
>>>
>>>                  P.S. i sent the previous post from a foreign device and
>>>         accidentally
>>>                  with my gmail address as sender so it didn’t make it to
>>>         the list
>>>                  — so
>>>                  thank you for quoting it in full so I don’t think we
>>>         need to
>>>                  repost that :)
>>>
>>>                      This is essentially the Mapping stage of the
>>> well-known
>>>                      Visualization
>>>                      pipeline
>>>
>>>         (http://www.infovis-wiki.net/_**___index.php/Visualization____**
>>> _Pipeline<http://www.infovis-wiki.net/____index.php/Visualization_____Pipeline>
>>>         <http://www.infovis-wiki.net/_**_index.php/Visualization___**
>>> Pipeline<http://www.infovis-wiki.net/__index.php/Visualization___Pipeline>
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>         <http://www.infovis-wiki.net/_**_index.php/Visualization___**
>>> Pipeline<http://www.infovis-wiki.net/__index.php/Visualization___Pipeline><
>>> http://www.infovis-wiki.net/**index.php/Visualization_**Pipeline<http://www.infovis-wiki.net/index.php/Visualization_Pipeline>
>>> >>),
>>>
>>>                      except
>>>                      that here we also map interaction aspects to an
>>>         abstract scene
>>>                      description (XML3D) first, which then performs the
>>>         rendering and
>>>                      interaction. So you can think of this as an
>>> additional
>>>                      "Scene" stage
>>>                      between "Mapping" and "Rendering".
>>>
>>>                          I think this is a different topic, but also with
>>>                          real-virtual
>>>                          interaction for example how to facilitate nice
>>>         simple
>>>                          authoring of
>>>                          the e.g. real-virtual object mappings seems a
>>>         fruitful
>>>                          enough angle
>>>                          to think a bit, perhaps as a case to help in
>>>                          understanding the entity
>>>                          system & the different servers etc. For example
>>>         if there's a
>>>                          component type 'real world link', the Interface
>>>         Designer
>>>                          GUI shows it
>>>                          automatically in the list of components, ppl
>>>         can just
>>>                          add them to
>>>                          their scenes and somehow then the system just
>>>         works..
>>>
>>>
>>>                      I am not sure what you are getting at. But it would
>>>         be great
>>>                      if the
>>>                      Interface Designer would allow to choose such POI
>>>         mappings
>>>                      from a
>>>                      predegined catalog. It seems that Xflow can be used
>>>         nicely for
>>>                      generating the mapped scene elements from some
>>>         input data,
>>>                      e.g. using
>>>                      the same approach we use to provide basic
>>>         primitives like
>>>                      cubes or
>>>                      spheres in XML3D. Here they are not fixed, build-in
>>>         tags as
>>>                      in X3D but
>>>                      can actually be added by the developer as it best
>>> fits.
>>>
>>>                      For generating more complex subgraphs we may have
>>>         to extend the
>>>                      current Xflow implementation. But its at least a
>>> great
>>>                      starting point
>>>                      to experiment with it. Experiments and feedback
>>>         would be
>>>                      very welcome
>>>                      here.
>>>
>>>                          I don't think these discussions are now hurt by
>>> us
>>>                          (currently) having
>>>                          alternative renderers - the entity system,
>>>         formats, sync
>>>                          and the
>>>                          overall architecture is the same anyway.
>>>
>>>
>>>                      Well, some things only work in one and others only
>>>         in the other
>>>                      branch. So the above mechanism could not be used to
>>>                      visualize POIs in
>>>                      the three.js branch but we do not have all the
>>>         features to
>>>                      visualize
>>>                      Oulu (or whatever city) in the XML3D.js branch. This
>>>                      definitely IS
>>>                      greatly limiting how we can combine the GEs into
>>>         more complex
>>>                      applications -- the untimate goal of the orthogonal
>>>         design
>>>                      of this
>>>                      chapter.
>>>
>>>                      And it does not even work within the same chapter.
>>>         It will
>>>                      be hard to
>>>                      explain to Juanjo and others from FI-WARE (or the
>>>         commission
>>>                      for that
>>>                      matter).
>>>
>>>                      BTW, I just learned today that there is a FI-WARE
>>>         smaller review
>>>                      coming up soon. Let's see if we already have to
>>> present
>>>                      things there.
>>>                      So far they have not explicitly asked us.
>>>
>>>
>>>                      Best,
>>>
>>>                      Philipp
>>>
>>>                          -Toni
>>>
>>>
>>>                               From an XML3D POV things could actually be
>>>         quite
>>>                              "easy". It should
>>>                              be rather simple to directly interface to
>>>         the IoT
>>>                              GEs of FI-WARE
>>>                              through REST via a new Xflow element. This
>>>         would
>>>                              then make the data
>>>                              available through <data> elements. Then you
>>>         can use
>>>                              all the features
>>>                              of Xflow to manipulate the scene based on
>>>         the data.
>>>                              For example, we
>>>                              are discussing building a set of
>>>         visualization nodes
>>>                              that implement
>>>                              common visualization metaphors, such as
>>> scatter
>>>                              plots, animations,
>>>                              you name it. A new member of the lab
>>>         starting soon
>>>                              wants to look
>>>                              into this area.
>>>
>>>                              For acting on objects we have always used
>>> Web
>>>                              services attached to
>>>                              the XML3D objects via DOM events.
>>> Eventually, I
>>>                              believe we want a
>>>                              higher level input handling and processing
>>>         framework
>>>                              but no one
>>>                              knows so far, how this should look like (we
>>>         have
>>>                              some ideas but they
>>>                              are not well baked, any inpu is highly
>>> welcome
>>>                              here). This might or
>>>                              might not reuse some of the Xflow
>>> mechanisms.
>>>
>>>                              But how to implement RealVirtual
>>> Interaction is
>>>                              indeed an intersting
>>>                              discussion. Getting us all on the same page
>>> and
>>>                              sharing ideas and
>>>                              implementations is very helpful. Doing this
>>>         on the
>>>                              same SW platform
>>>                              (without the fork that we currently have)
>>> would
>>>                              facilitate a
>>>                              powerful implementation even more.
>>>
>>>
>>>                              Thanks
>>>
>>>                                  Philipp
>>>
>>>                              Am 23.10.2013 08:02, schrieb Tomi Sarni:
>>>
>>>                                  ->Philipp
>>>                                  /I did not get the idea why POIs are
>>>         similar to
>>>                                  ECA. At a very high
>>>                                  level I see it, but I am not sure what
>>>         it buys
>>>                                  us. Can someone sketch
>>>                                  that picture in some more detail?/
>>>
>>>                                  Well I suppose it becomes relevant at
>>>         point when
>>>                                  we are combining our
>>>                                  GEs together. If the model can be
>>>         applied in
>>>                                  level of scene then
>>>                                  down to
>>>                                  POI in a scene and further down in
>>>         sensor level,
>>>                                  things can be
>>>                                  more easily visualized. Not just in
>>>         terms of
>>>                                  painting 3D models but in
>>>                                  terms of handling big data as well, more
>>>                                  specifically handling
>>>                                  relationships/inheritance. It also
>>>         makes it easier
>>>                                  to design a RESTful API as we have a
>>> common
>>>                                  structure which to follow
>>>                                  and also provides more opportunities
>>>         for 3rd
>>>                                  party developers to make
>>>                                  use of the data for their own purposes.
>>>
>>>                                  For instance
>>>
>>>                                  ->Toni
>>>
>>>                                   From point of sensors, the
>>>         entity-component becomes
>>>                                  device-sensors/actuators. A device may
>>>         have an
>>>                                  unique identifier and IP
>>>                                  by which to access it, but it may also
>>>         contain
>>>                                  several actuators and
>>>                                  sensors
>>>                                  that are components of that  device
>>> entity.
>>>                                  Sensors/actuators
>>>                                  themselves
>>>                                  are not aware to whom they are
>>>         interesting to.
>>>                                  One client may use the
>>>                                  sensor information differently to other
>>>         client.
>>>                                  Sensor/actuator service
>>>                                  allows any other service to query using
>>>                                  request/response method either
>>>                                  by geo-coordinates (circle,square or
>>>         complex
>>>                                  shape queries) or perhaps
>>>                                  through type+maxresults and service
>>>         will return
>>>                                  entities and their
>>>                                  components
>>>                                  from which the reqester can form logical
>>>                                  groups(array of entity uuids)
>>>                                  and query more detailed information
>>>         based on
>>>                                  that logical group.
>>>
>>>                                  I guess there needs to be similar
>>>         thinking done
>>>                                  on POI level. I guess
>>>                                  POI does not know which scene it
>>>         belongs to. It
>>>                                  is up to scene
>>>                                  server to
>>>                                  form a logical group of POIs (e.g.
>>>         restaurants
>>>                                  of oulu 3d city
>>>                                  model). Then
>>>                                  again the problem is that scene needs
>>>         to wait
>>>                                  for POI to query for
>>>                                  sensors and form its logical groups
>>>         before it
>>>                                  can pass information to
>>>                                  scene. This can lead to long wait
>>>         times. But
>>>                                  this sequencing problem is
>>>                                  also something
>>>                                  that could be thought. Anyways this is
>>>         a common
>>>                                  problem with everything
>>>                                  in web at the moment in my opinnion.
>>>         Services
>>>                                  become intertwined.
>>>                                  When a
>>>                                  client loads a web page there can be
>>>         queries to
>>>                                  20 different services
>>>                                  for advertisment and other stuff. Web
>>> page
>>>                                  handles it by painting stuff
>>>                                  to the client on receive basis. I think
>>>         this
>>>                                  could be applied in Scene
>>>                                  as well.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>                                  On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 8:00 AM,
>>>         Philipp Slusallek
>>>                                  <Philipp.Slusallek at dfki.de
>>>         <mailto:Philipp.Slusallek@**dfki.de <Philipp.Slusallek at dfki.de>>
>>>                                  <mailto:Philipp.Slusallek at __df**ki.de<http://dfki.de>
>>>         <mailto:Philipp.Slusallek@**dfki.de <Philipp.Slusallek at dfki.de>
>>> >>
>>>                                  <mailto:Philipp.Slusallek@
>>>         <mailto:Philipp.Slusallek@>__d**f__ki.de <http://df__ki.de> <
>>> http://dfki.de>
>>>
>>>                                  <mailto:Philipp.Slusallek at __df**ki.de<http://dfki.de>
>>>         <mailto:Philipp.Slusallek@**dfki.de <Philipp.Slusallek at dfki.de>
>>> >>>
>>>                                  <mailto:Philipp.Slusallek@
>>>         <mailto:Philipp.Slusallek@>__d**f__ki.de <http://df__ki.de> <
>>> http://dfki.de>
>>>
>>>
>>>                                  <mailto:Philipp.Slusallek at __df**ki.de<http://dfki.de>
>>>         <mailto:Philipp.Slusallek@**dfki.de <Philipp.Slusallek at dfki.de>>>>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>                                      Hi,
>>>
>>>                                      First of all, its certainly a good
>>>         thing to
>>>                                  also meet locally. I was
>>>                                      just a bit confused whether that
>>>         meeting
>>>                                  somehow would involve us as
>>>                                      well. Summarizing the results
>>>         briefly for
>>>                                  the others would
>>>                                      definitely be interesting.
>>>
>>>                                      I did not get the idea why POIs are
>>>         similar
>>>                                  to ECA. At a very high
>>>                                      level I see it, but I am not sure
>>>         what it
>>>                                  buys us. Can someone
>>>                                      sketch that picture in some more
>>>         detail?
>>>
>>>                                      BTW, what is the status with the
>>>         Rendering
>>>                                  discussion (Three.js vs.
>>>                                      xml3d.js)? I still have the feeling
>>>         that we
>>>                                  are doing parallel work
>>>                                      here that should probably be
>>> avoided.
>>>
>>>                                      BTW, as part of our shading work
>>>         (which is
>>>                                  shaping up nicely) Felix
>>>                                      has been looking lately at a way to
>>>         describe
>>>                                  rendering stages
>>>                                      (passes) essentially through Xflow.
>>>         It is
>>>                                  still very experimental
>>>                                      but he is using it to implement
>>>         shadow maps
>>>                                  right now.
>>>
>>>                                      @Felix: Once this has converged
>>>         into a bit
>>>                                  more stable idea, it
>>>                                      would be good to post this here to
>>> get
>>>                                  feedback. The way we
>>>                                      discussed it, this approach could
>>>         form a
>>>                                  nice basis for a modular
>>>                                      design of advanced rasterization
>>>         techniques
>>>                                  (reflection maps, adv.
>>>                                      face rendering, SSAO, lens flare,
>>> tone
>>>                                  mapping, etc.), and (later)
>>>                                      maybe also describe global
>>> illumination
>>>                                  settings (similar to our
>>>                                      work on LightingNetworks some years
>>>         ago).
>>>
>>>
>>>                                      Best,
>>>
>>>                                               Philipp
>>>
>>>                                      Am 22.10.2013 23:03, schrieb
>>>         toni at playsign.net <mailto:toni at playsign.net>
>>>         <mailto:toni at playsign.net <mailto:toni at playsign.net>>
>>>                                  <mailto:toni at playsign.net
>>>         <mailto:toni at playsign.net>
>>>                                  <mailto:toni at playsign.net
>>>         <mailto:toni at playsign.net>>>
>>>
>>>                                      <mailto:toni at playsign.net
>>>         <mailto:toni at playsign.net>
>>>                                  <mailto:toni at playsign.net
>>>         <mailto:toni at playsign.net>>>:
>>>
>>>                                          Just a brief note: we had some
>>>                                  interesting preliminary
>>>                                  discussion
>>>                                          triggered by how the data
>>>         schema that
>>>                                  Ari O. presented for
>>>                                  the POI
>>>                                          system seemed at least partly
>>>         similar to
>>>                                  what the Real-Virtual
>>>                                          interaction work had resulted
>>>         in too --
>>>                                  and in fact about
>>>                                  how the
>>>                                          proposed POI schema was
>>> basically a
>>>                                  version of the
>>>                                  entity-component
>>>                                          model which we’ve already been
>>>         using for
>>>                                  scenes in realXtend
>>>                                  (it is
>>>                                          inspired by / modeled after it,
>>> Ari
>>>                                  told). So it can be much
>>>                                          related to
>>>                                          the Scene API work in the
>>>                                  Synchronization GE too. As the action
>>>                                          point we
>>>                                          agreed that Ari will organize a
>>>         specific
>>>                                  work session on that.
>>>                                          I was now thinking that it
>>>         perhaps at
>>>                                  least partly leads
>>>                                  back to the
>>>                                          question: how do we define (and
>>>                                  implement) component types. I.e.
>>>                                          what
>>>                                          was mentioned in that
>>>         entity-system post
>>>                                  a few weeks back (with
>>>                                          links
>>>                                          to reX IComponent etc.). I
>>> mean: if
>>>                                  functionality such as
>>>                                  POIs and
>>>                                          realworld interaction make
>>> sense as
>>>                                  somehow resulting in
>>>                                  custom data
>>>                                          component types, does it mean
>>>         that a key
>>>                                  part of the framework
>>>                                          is a way
>>>                                          for those systems to declare
>>>         their types
>>>                                  .. so that it
>>>                                          integrates nicely
>>>                                          for the whole we want? I’m not
>>>         sure, too
>>>                                  tired to think it
>>>                                          through now,
>>>                                          but anyhow just wanted to
>>>         mention that
>>>                                  this was one topic that
>>>                                          came up.
>>>                                          I think Web Components is again
>>>                                  something to check - as in XML
>>>                                          terms reX
>>>                                          Components are xml(3d) elements
>>>         .. just
>>>                                  ones that are usually in
>>>                                          a group
>>>                                          (according to the reX entity
>>>         <-> xml3d
>>>                                  group mapping). And Web
>>>                                          Components are about defining &
>>>                                  implementing new elements
>>>                                  (as Erno
>>>                                          pointed out in a different
>>>         discussion
>>>                                  about xml-html authoring
>>>                                          in the
>>>                                          session).
>>>                                          BTW Thanks Kristian for the
>>> great
>>>                                  comments in that entity system
>>>                                          thread - was really good to
>>>         learn about
>>>                                  the alternative
>>>                                          attribute access
>>>                                          syntax and the validation in
>>>         XML3D(.js).
>>>                                          ~Toni
>>>                                          P.S. for (Christof &) the DFKI
>>>         folks:
>>>                                  I’m sure you
>>>                                  understand the
>>>                                          rationale of these Oulu meets
>>>         -- idea is
>>>                                  ofc not to exclude you
>>>                                          from the
>>>                                          talks but just makes sense for
>>>         us to
>>>                                  meet live too as we are in
>>>                                          the same
>>>                                          city afterall etc -- naturally
>>>         with the
>>>                                  DFKI team you also talk
>>>                                          there
>>>                                          locally. Perhaps is a good idea
>>>         that we
>>>                                  make notes so that can
>>>                                          post e.g.
>>>                                          here then (I’m not volunteering
>>>         though!
>>>                                  😜) . Also, the now
>>>                                  agreed
>>>                                          bi-weekly setup on Tuesdays
>>> luckily
>>>                                  works  so that we can then
>>>                                          summarize
>>>                                          fresh in the global Wed
>>>         meetings and
>>>                                  continue the talks etc.
>>>                                          *From:* Erno Kuusela
>>>                                          *Sent:* ‎Tuesday‎, ‎October‎
>>>         ‎22‎, ‎2013
>>>                                  ‎9‎:‎57‎ ‎AM
>>>                                          *To:* Fiware-miwi
>>>
>>>
>>>                                          Kari from CIE offered to host
>>>         it this
>>>                                  time, so see you there at
>>>                                          13:00.
>>>
>>>                                          Erno
>>>
>>>
>>>         ______________________________**_______________________
>>>
>>>
>>>                                          Fiware-miwi mailing list
>>>         Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-ware.eu <mailto:Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-**
>>> ware.eu <Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-ware.eu>>
>>>                                  <mailto:Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-_**
>>> _ware.eu <Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-__ware.eu>
>>>         <mailto:Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-**ware.eu<Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-ware.eu>
>>> >>
>>>
>>>         <mailto:Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-_**___ware.eu<Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-____ware.eu>
>>>         <mailto:Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-_**_ware.eu<Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-__ware.eu>
>>> >
>>>                                  <mailto:Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-_**
>>> _ware.eu <Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-__ware.eu>
>>>         <mailto:Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-**ware.eu<Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-ware.eu>
>>> >>>
>>>
>>>         <mailto:Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-_**___ware.eu<Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-____ware.eu>
>>>         <mailto:Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-_**_ware.eu<Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-__ware.eu>
>>> >
>>>                                  <mailto:Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-_**
>>> _ware.eu <Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-__ware.eu>
>>>         <mailto:Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-**ware.eu<Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-ware.eu>
>>> >>>
>>>         https://lists.fi-ware.eu/_____**_listinfo/fiware-miwi<https://lists.fi-ware.eu/______listinfo/fiware-miwi>
>>>         <https://lists.fi-ware.eu/____**listinfo/fiware-miwi<https://lists.fi-ware.eu/____listinfo/fiware-miwi>
>>> >
>>>
>>>         <https://lists.fi-ware.eu/____**listinfo/fiware-miwi<https://lists.fi-ware.eu/____listinfo/fiware-miwi>
>>>         <https://lists.fi-ware.eu/__**listinfo/fiware-miwi<https://lists.fi-ware.eu/__listinfo/fiware-miwi>
>>> >>
>>>
>>>
>>>         <https://lists.fi-ware.eu/____**listinfo/fiware-miwi<https://lists.fi-ware.eu/____listinfo/fiware-miwi>
>>>         <https://lists.fi-ware.eu/__**listinfo/fiware-miwi<https://lists.fi-ware.eu/__listinfo/fiware-miwi>
>>> >
>>>         <https://lists.fi-ware.eu/__**listinfo/fiware-miwi<https://lists.fi-ware.eu/__listinfo/fiware-miwi>
>>>         <https://lists.fi-ware.eu/**listinfo/fiware-miwi<https://lists.fi-ware.eu/listinfo/fiware-miwi>
>>> >>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>         ______________________________**_______________________
>>>
>>>
>>>                                          Fiware-miwi mailing list
>>>         Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-ware.eu <mailto:Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-**
>>> ware.eu <Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-ware.eu>>
>>>                                  <mailto:Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-_**
>>> _ware.eu <Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-__ware.eu>
>>>         <mailto:Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-**ware.eu<Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-ware.eu>
>>> >>
>>>
>>>         <mailto:Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-_**___ware.eu<Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-____ware.eu>
>>>         <mailto:Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-_**_ware.eu<Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-__ware.eu>
>>> >
>>>                                  <mailto:Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-_**
>>> _ware.eu <Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-__ware.eu>
>>>         <mailto:Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-**ware.eu<Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-ware.eu>
>>> >>>
>>>
>>>         <mailto:Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-_**___ware.eu<Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-____ware.eu>
>>>         <mailto:Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-_**_ware.eu<Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-__ware.eu>
>>> >
>>>                                  <mailto:Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-_**
>>> _ware.eu <Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-__ware.eu>
>>>         <mailto:Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-**ware.eu<Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-ware.eu>
>>> >>>
>>>         https://lists.fi-ware.eu/_____**_listinfo/fiware-miwi<https://lists.fi-ware.eu/______listinfo/fiware-miwi>
>>>         <https://lists.fi-ware.eu/____**listinfo/fiware-miwi<https://lists.fi-ware.eu/____listinfo/fiware-miwi>
>>> >
>>>         <https://lists.fi-ware.eu/____**listinfo/fiware-miwi<https://lists.fi-ware.eu/____listinfo/fiware-miwi>
>>>         <https://lists.fi-ware.eu/__**listinfo/fiware-miwi<https://lists.fi-ware.eu/__listinfo/fiware-miwi>
>>> >>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>         <https://lists.fi-ware.eu/____**listinfo/fiware-miwi<https://lists.fi-ware.eu/____listinfo/fiware-miwi>
>>>         <https://lists.fi-ware.eu/__**listinfo/fiware-miwi<https://lists.fi-ware.eu/__listinfo/fiware-miwi>
>>> >
>>>         <https://lists.fi-ware.eu/__**listinfo/fiware-miwi<https://lists.fi-ware.eu/__listinfo/fiware-miwi>
>>>         <https://lists.fi-ware.eu/**listinfo/fiware-miwi<https://lists.fi-ware.eu/listinfo/fiware-miwi>
>>> >>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>                                      --
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>         ------------------------------**______------------------------**
>>> --__--__--__-------------
>>>
>>>
>>>                                      Deutsches Forschungszentrum für
>>>         Künstliche
>>>                                  Intelligenz (DFKI) GmbH
>>>                                      Trippstadter Strasse 122, D-67663
>>>         Kaiserslautern
>>>
>>>                                      Geschäftsführung:
>>>                                         Prof. Dr. Dr. h.c. mult. Wolfgang
>>>                                  Wahlster (Vorsitzender)
>>>                                         Dr. Walter Olthoff
>>>                                      Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats:
>>>                                         Prof. Dr. h.c. Hans A. Aukes
>>>
>>>                                      Sitz der Gesellschaft:
>>>         Kaiserslautern (HRB 2313)
>>>                                      USt-Id.Nr.: DE 148646973,
>>> Steuernummer:
>>>                                    19/673/0060/3
>>>
>>>
>>>         ------------------------------**______------------------------**
>>> --__--__--__---------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>         ______________________________**_____________________
>>>                                      Fiware-miwi mailing list
>>>         Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-ware.eu <mailto:Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-**
>>> ware.eu <Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-ware.eu>>
>>>                                  <mailto:Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-_**
>>> _ware.eu <Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-__ware.eu>
>>>         <mailto:Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-**ware.eu<Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-ware.eu>
>>> >>
>>>
>>>         <mailto:Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-_**___ware.eu<Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-____ware.eu>
>>>         <mailto:Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-_**_ware.eu<Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-__ware.eu>
>>> >
>>>                                  <mailto:Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-_**
>>> _ware.eu <Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-__ware.eu>
>>>         <mailto:Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-**ware.eu<Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-ware.eu>
>>> >>>
>>>
>>>         <mailto:Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-_**___ware.eu<Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-____ware.eu>
>>>         <mailto:Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-_**_ware.eu<Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-__ware.eu>
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>                                  <mailto:Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-_**
>>> _ware.eu <Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-__ware.eu>
>>>         <mailto:Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-**ware.eu<Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-ware.eu>
>>> >>>
>>>         https://lists.fi-ware.eu/____**listinfo/fiware-miwi<https://lists.fi-ware.eu/____listinfo/fiware-miwi>
>>>         <https://lists.fi-ware.eu/__**listinfo/fiware-miwi<https://lists.fi-ware.eu/__listinfo/fiware-miwi>
>>> >
>>>
>>>         <https://lists.fi-ware.eu/__**listinfo/fiware-miwi<https://lists.fi-ware.eu/__listinfo/fiware-miwi>
>>>         <https://lists.fi-ware.eu/**listinfo/fiware-miwi<https://lists.fi-ware.eu/listinfo/fiware-miwi>
>>> >>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>                              --
>>>
>>>
>>>         ------------------------------**____--------------------------**
>>> --__--__-------------
>>>                              Deutsches Forschungszentrum für Künstliche
>>>                              Intelligenz (DFKI) GmbH
>>>                              Trippstadter Strasse 122, D-67663
>>>         Kaiserslautern
>>>
>>>                              Geschäftsführung:
>>>                                Prof. Dr. Dr. h.c. mult. Wolfgang Wahlster
>>>                              (Vorsitzender)
>>>                                Dr. Walter Olthoff
>>>                              Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats:
>>>                                Prof. Dr. h.c. Hans A. Aukes
>>>
>>>                              Sitz der Gesellschaft: Kaiserslautern (HRB
>>>         2313)
>>>                              USt-Id.Nr.: DE 148646973, Steuernummer:
>>>           19/673/0060/3
>>>
>>>         ------------------------------**____--------------------------**
>>> --__--__---------------
>>>                              <slusallek.vcf>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>                      --
>>>
>>>
>>>         ------------------------------**____--------------------------**
>>> --__--__-------------
>>>                      Deutsches Forschungszentrum für Künstliche
>>> Intelligenz
>>>                      (DFKI) GmbH
>>>                      Trippstadter Strasse 122, D-67663 Kaiserslautern
>>>
>>>                      Geschäftsführung:
>>>                        Prof. Dr. Dr. h.c. mult. Wolfgang Wahlster
>>>         (Vorsitzender)
>>>                        Dr. Walter Olthoff
>>>                      Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats:
>>>                        Prof. Dr. h.c. Hans A. Aukes
>>>
>>>                      Sitz der Gesellschaft: Kaiserslautern (HRB 2313)
>>>                      USt-Id.Nr.: DE 148646973, Steuernummer:
>>>  19/673/0060/3
>>>
>>>         ------------------------------**____--------------------------**
>>> --__--__---------------
>>>                      <slusallek.vcf>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>              --
>>>
>>>
>>>         ------------------------------**____--------------------------**
>>> --__--__-------------
>>>              Deutsches Forschungszentrum für Künstliche Intelligenz
>>>         (DFKI) GmbH
>>>              Trippstadter Strasse 122, D-67663 Kaiserslautern
>>>
>>>              Geschäftsführung:
>>>                 Prof. Dr. Dr. h.c. mult. Wolfgang Wahlster (Vorsitzender)
>>>                 Dr. Walter Olthoff
>>>              Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats:
>>>                 Prof. Dr. h.c. Hans A. Aukes
>>>
>>>              Sitz der Gesellschaft: Kaiserslautern (HRB 2313)
>>>              USt-Id.Nr.: DE 148646973, Steuernummer:  19/673/0060/3
>>>
>>>         ------------------------------**____--------------------------**
>>> --__--__---------------
>>>
>>>              ______________________________**___________________
>>>              Fiware-miwi mailing list
>>>         Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-ware.eu
>>>         <mailto:Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-**ware.eu<Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-ware.eu>
>>> >
>>>         <mailto:Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-_**_ware.eu<Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-__ware.eu>
>>>         <mailto:Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-**ware.eu<Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-ware.eu>
>>> >>
>>>         https://lists.fi-ware.eu/__**listinfo/fiware-miwi<https://lists.fi-ware.eu/__listinfo/fiware-miwi>
>>>         <https://lists.fi-ware.eu/**listinfo/fiware-miwi<https://lists.fi-ware.eu/listinfo/fiware-miwi>
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     --
>>>
>>>     ------------------------------**__----------------------------**
>>> --__-------------
>>>     Deutsches Forschungszentrum für Künstliche Intelligenz (DFKI) GmbH
>>>     Trippstadter Strasse 122, D-67663 Kaiserslautern
>>>
>>>     Geschäftsführung:
>>>        Prof. Dr. Dr. h.c. mult. Wolfgang Wahlster (Vorsitzender)
>>>        Dr. Walter Olthoff
>>>     Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats:
>>>        Prof. Dr. h.c. Hans A. Aukes
>>>
>>>     Sitz der Gesellschaft: Kaiserslautern (HRB 2313)
>>>     USt-Id.Nr.: DE 148646973, Steuernummer:  19/673/0060/3
>>>     ------------------------------**__----------------------------**
>>> --__---------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
>> -------------
>> Deutsches Forschungszentrum für Künstliche Intelligenz (DFKI) GmbH
>> Trippstadter Strasse 122, D-67663 Kaiserslautern
>>
>> Geschäftsführung:
>>   Prof. Dr. Dr. h.c. mult. Wolfgang Wahlster (Vorsitzender)
>>   Dr. Walter Olthoff
>> Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats:
>>   Prof. Dr. h.c. Hans A. Aukes
>>
>> Sitz der Gesellschaft: Kaiserslautern (HRB 2313)
>> USt-Id.Nr.: DE 148646973, Steuernummer:  19/673/0060/3
>> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
>> ---------------
>>
>
>
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