Hi, Great we agree here. BTW, Torsten has started to work on the KIARA implementation in JS and C# (beyond the stubs that we had so far) and we will sync (sic!) this to the initial C/C++ version from Dmitri we have now, so they can all talk to each other efficiently. Best, Philipp Am 06.04.2014 12:46, schrieb Toni Alatalo: > ok - I'll plan tomorrow so that can give a shot, thanks for info. > > and yes missing such a 'standalone' implementation is correct and > makes sense -- the implementation of the ECA biz in C++ tundra's > TundraProtocolModule etc. is pretty tied to the rest of the system, > rendering with Ogre etc. only kNet is separate but that's just the low > level networking and not related to the scene-entities. > > that's something where the standalone sync impl in WebTundra's > networking module helps a little now, gives a small simple client lib > for generic use (for example the case of sim servers discussed related > to SceneAPI) but only for Javascript & WebSockets. Erno has tested it > with Node.js recently btw. But Kiara with support for perhaps all > relevant langs later and transports etc. is indeed still good to check > for next steps and is sure great it already works for reX like things > in FiVES. > > ~Toni > > > On Sun, Apr 6, 2014 at 11:39 AM, Philipp Slusallek > <Philipp.Slusallek at dfki.de> wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Feel free to add to it based on the text you wrote. I pass the token to you. >> I am not exactly sure when it is supposed to go to the commission -- but >> this is very soon. >> >> Regarding the sync section. On the one hand you are right that realXtend had >> a generic protocol embedded in it, but my understanding was that it was >> pretty much tied to realXtend and not really available outside of it (even >> though one could probably have extracted it with some effort). This is the >> point I find important in the sense of offering a generic tool for >> synchronization. >> >> With "pure", I meant "standalone" in the sense of the above. Wording should >> be fixed. >> >> >> Best, >> >> Philipp >> >> >> Am 06.04.2014 09:34, schrieb Toni Alatalo: >> >>> I've also found it OK when looked previously. Had a couple of things >>> that wanted to add then but was traveling and didn't have access to >>> Word (actually never normally do unfortunately) so didn't have a way >>> to work on them safely. Still seems fine and is good to go if there's >>> a hurry - a couple of notes here anyhow in case there's a chance to >>> work on it still: >>> >>> a simple story -- how fi-ware has advanced the state of the art from >>> realXtend's perspective: >>> >>> - starting point: ECA model proposed as a standard for extensible >>> virtual worlds a few years back (Alatalo 2011). with a c++ >>> implementation that has since matured and is in commercial use >>> >>> - progress beyond state of art: ECA implemented over web sockets with >>> integrated 3D-UI with WebGL -> Web / HTML5 implementation of the same >>> proposed platform >>> - improvements to the ECA model: >>> * mapping between xml3d & reX ECA: allows much more human friendly >>> declarative authoring than TXML. integrates nicely to Web when used >>> inside HTML. >>> * entity hierarchy (not flat like before fi-ware, proper parenting) >>> (new in 3.3) >>> * proper custom component support from Javascript (new in 3.3) >>> * these last points also AFAIK enable complete representation of any >>> xml, including html & xml3d in reX ECA -> the generic simple network >>> protocol with AttributeChanged etc. messages works to sync those too >>> >>> In the current document I think a section based on that could be used >>> to improve the "Web User Interface Server Core Technologies" - it >>> doesn't really make sense to say: "Today, real-time synchronization of >>> 3D scenes is limited to specialized applications such as SecondLife >>> (secondlife.com) and games engines like Unreal and others. " when we >>> already presented a *generic* protocol and platform already 3 years >>> ago and have happily used it in business since. Basically what was >>> missing before fi-ware was a web/html5 implementation of that. >>> >>> That 2011 article which introduced the model & platform is this BTW, >>> perhaps good to add to refs: Toni Alatalo, "An Entity-Component Model >>> for Extensible Virtual Worlds," IEEE Internet Computing, vol. 15, no. >>> 5, pp. 30-37, Sept.-Oct. 2011, doi:10.1109/MIC.2011.82 >>> http://www.computer.org/csdl/mags/ic/2011/05/mic2011050030-abs.html >>> >>> Here is a mistake (it's realxtend.org, not .com) and I'd consider the >>> wording too: "FI-WARE technology is currently based on realXtend >>> (realXtend.com) [Dahl 13]. Additionally, an more pure synchronization >>> layer (FIVES) has been designed that is based on the FI-WARE Advanced >>> Middleware [Byelozyorov 13]" >>> >>> I'm not sure if 'more pure' is a good choice of words there, >>> especially as AFAIK the FiVES implementation is basically identical >>> with the realXtend model and implementations. realXtend is also >>> completely pure in several ways: the ECA model doesn't specify any >>> vocabulary itself (like XML doesn't) but applications or plugins can >>> define whatever components they want (like xml3d and realXtend's set >>> of basic components do). The networking works automatically for any >>> component. reX ECA is independent of the transport layer: in current >>> Tundra impls the messaging is handled by the Kristalli / kNet library, >>> but any other transport could be used without the application layer >>> seeing any changes I think. >>> >>> I know and sure acknowledge that KIARA is much more ambitious and >>> advanced in how it can do the serialisation and automatically choose >>> suitable transports etc. but I'm not aware how something on the FiVES >>> level would be 'more pure' nor what that'd mean. If it refers to >>> generality with regards to application data types etc. it's AFAIK the >>> same. >>> >>> A more informative description of the differences in purity and >>> networking might be useful there. At least for me to understand what >>> the doc is trying to say :) >>> >>> Final point: some of these things are already done and being >>> delivered, at least glTF and other optimized transfer format support >>> (glTF demo in WebTundra demos, CTM also in xml3d.js) & integration >>> with the editor / Interface Designer and the basic 3D things - if this >>> is to report how we're progressed we could change some of the future >>> form 'wills' there to past tense: "FI-WARE technology is based on >>> XML3D [Sons 10] and will in future extend the current state-of-the-art >>> by (i) adding a much extended content pipeline for integrating 3D >>> content, (ii) a 3D asset data base including versioning and different, >>> Web-optimized 3D data formats (working with the glTF initiative at >>> Khronos), (iii) improved resource management for adaptive, on-demand >>> loading and unloading of scene content, (iv) improved developer tools >>> for distributed and synchronized Web applications, and (v) >>> significantly improving the access to hardware resources for >>> computational expensive tasks like AR, animation, and others. The >>> 3D-UI technologies will closely tie together with the Interface >>> Designer technology that will provide all of the features mentioned >>> above in an interactive context directly to users." >>> >>> Anyhow I think it's also fine already if must go forward. If there is >>> still time and you find some of these would be good improvements I can >>> give a shot at integrating them in some simple ways tomorrow (can get >>> to a compu with ms word then if necessary). >>> >>> Cheers and thanks for work on the comprehensive doc! >>> ~Toni >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 6, 2014 at 9:19 AM, Philipp Slusallek >>> <Philipp.Slusallek at dfki.de> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> Sorry for the dealy but I was extremely busy the last few weeks. >>>> >>>> Here is (what I consider) the final version of the SotA for WP13. I did a >>>> final pass over the general text, adding some more references, and adding >>>> an >>>> extensive Executive Summary that gives and overview of the available >>>> technology, puts it in perspective, and sketches how the individual >>>> enabler >>>> are related to each other.. >>>> >>>> It would be good if someone did a quick pass over it to spot any typos >>>> and >>>> such but otherwise it should be ready to go. >>>> >>>> Hope you like it :-), >>>> >>>> >>>> Philipp >>>> >>>> Am 17.03.2014 17:14, schrieb Christof Marti: >>>> >>>>> Hi Philipp >>>>> >>>>> Can I delegate the finalization of the D.2.6.3 WP13 SoTA contribution to >>>>> you? >>>>> >>>>> I am very busy going through OpenSpecs v3 and create the D.13.1.3 >>>>> Deliverable >>>>> and also checking all the Release 3 comments (Guides, UTP) and prepare >>>>> feedback >>>>> for Miguel, to get the release-review process going again. >>>>> >>>>> Important: In todays WPL/WPA call it was pointed out, that we also have >>>>> to >>>>> provide a management summary (~ 1 page), containing only the newest >>>>> developments. >>>>> (For the other chapters this are the changes since last release of the >>>>> deliverable) >>>>> (For us this could be a compilation from the last part of all the GEs >>>>> sota) >>>>> >>>>> Best regards >>>>> Christof >>>>> >>>>> Am 16.03.2014 um 10:48 schrieb Philipp Slusallek >>>>> <Philipp.Slusallek at dfki.de>: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> >>>>>> I did go through the text and fixed quite a few missing references and >>>>>> marked some others that are still missing (please can some of the >>>>>> people >>>>>> involved in those GEs fix them). >>>>>> >>>>>> In general, there is a lack of references to previous work in quite a >>>>>> few of the GE descriptions. Please follow the model we have done in the >>>>>> middleware section and add some more references to previous work and >>>>>> then position your work in FI-WARE in relation to that. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> >>>>>> Philipp >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Am 15.03.2014 08:13, schrieb Jarkko Vatjus-Anttila: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I read through the paper in my behalf, and the text seems to be pretty >>>>>>> much collected from the text that has been formulated already earlier. >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> my opinion, it gives an overview of the state of the art and as such I >>>>>>> would guess it works as a deliverable for this purpose. However, >>>>>>> having >>>>>>> said that, I may not know all exact requirements what this deliverable >>>>>>> is expected to fulfill. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I made minor changes here and there, mainly fixing misspellings and >>>>>>> word >>>>>>> ordering. The modified document is attached here, with track changes >>>>>>> enabled. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - jarkko >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 10:00 PM, Marti Christof (mach) <mach at zhaw.ch >>>>>>> <mailto:mach at zhaw.ch>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Philipp, dear WP13 GE Owners >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Also due in M36 is an updated version (D.2.6.3) of the "State of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> art analysis - emerging technologies" deliverable. The previous >>>>>>> release can be found here: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://forge.fi-ware.org/docman/view.php/7/2667/D.2.6.2+State+of+the+Art+Analysis+-+Emerging+Technologies.pdf >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> <https://forge.fi-ware.org/docman/view.php/7/2667/D.2.6.2+State+of+the+Art+Analysis+%E2%80%93+Emerging+Technologies.pdf> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Idea for all existing WPs is to provide a management summary and >>>>>>> do >>>>>>> only required updates on the existing chapters. >>>>>>> Because there is no Web User Interfaces chapter in the last >>>>>>> deliverable I took the content from the FI-Core proposal and >>>>>>> tried >>>>>>> to put together a WP13 contribution for this deliverable. >>>>>>> It was more work than expected, because the writing style in a >>>>>>> proposal is a little bit different than for this deliverable. So >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> would like to ask Philipp (and the respective GE owner for their >>>>>>> part) to review the attached document (in change tracking mode), >>>>>>> add >>>>>>> missing content and in particular also add missing entries in the >>>>>>> "Reference" section. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Deadline for delivering updates to the coordinator for review >>>>>>> is/was >>>>>>> today (March 14th). Because of this additional internal review >>>>>>> roundtrip, this will not be feasible. >>>>>>> If each GE owner can review its 20 to 30 lines and Philipp keeps >>>>>>> am >>>>>>> eye on the overarching context until Monday noon, the delay would >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> minimal. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks for your contributions. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> @Miguel, Juanjo: I do not want to release this without the OK of >>>>>>> Philipp and the domain experts. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best regards >>>>>>> Christof >>>>>>> ---- >>>>>>> InIT Cloud Computing Lab - ICCLab >>>>>>> Institut of Applied Information Technology - InIT >>>>>>> Zurich University of Applied Sciences - ZHAW >>>>>>> School of Engineering >>>>>>> Phone: +41 58 934 70 63 <tel:%2B41%2058%20934%2070%2063> >>>>>>> Skype: christof-marti >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Fiware-miwi mailing list >>>>>>> Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-ware.eu >>>>>>> <mailto:Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-ware.eu> >>>>>>> https://lists.fi-ware.eu/listinfo/fiware-miwi >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Jarkko Vatjus-Anttila >>>>>>> VP, Technology >>>>>>> Cyberlightning Ltd. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> mobile. +358 405245142 >>>>>>> email. jarkko at cyberlightning.com <mailto:jarkko at cyberlightning.com> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Go to www.cybersli.de <http://www.cybersli.de/> and enrich your >>>>>>> presentations! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> www.cyberlightning.com <http://www.cyberlightning.com/> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> Deutsches Forschungszentrum für Künstliche Intelligenz (DFKI) GmbH >>>>>> Trippstadter Strasse 122, D-67663 Kaiserslautern >>>>>> >>>>>> Geschäftsführung: >>>>>> Prof. Dr. Dr. h.c. mult. Wolfgang Wahlster (Vorsitzender) >>>>>> Dr. Walter Olthoff >>>>>> Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: >>>>>> Prof. Dr. h.c. Hans A. Aukes >>>>>> >>>>>> Sitz der Gesellschaft: Kaiserslautern (HRB 2313) >>>>>> USt-Id.Nr.: DE 148646973, Steuernummer: 19/673/0060/3 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> <D.2.6.3 State of the Art Analysis - Emerging Technologies - >>>>>> WP13-1-phs.docx><slusallek.vcf> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> Deutsches Forschungszentrum für Künstliche Intelligenz (DFKI) GmbH >>>> Trippstadter Strasse 122, D-67663 Kaiserslautern >>>> >>>> Geschäftsführung: >>>> Prof. Dr. Dr. h.c. mult. Wolfgang Wahlster (Vorsitzender) >>>> Dr. Walter Olthoff >>>> Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: >>>> Prof. Dr. h.c. Hans A. Aukes >>>> >>>> Sitz der Gesellschaft: Kaiserslautern (HRB 2313) >>>> USt-Id.Nr.: DE 148646973, Steuernummer: 19/673/0060/3 >>>> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Fiware-miwi mailing list >>>> Fiware-miwi at lists.fi-ware.org >>>> https://lists.fi-ware.org/listinfo/fiware-miwi >>>> >> >> >> -- >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Deutsches Forschungszentrum für Künstliche Intelligenz (DFKI) GmbH >> Trippstadter Strasse 122, D-67663 Kaiserslautern >> >> Geschäftsführung: >> Prof. Dr. Dr. h.c. mult. Wolfgang Wahlster (Vorsitzender) >> Dr. Walter Olthoff >> Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: >> Prof. Dr. h.c. Hans A. Aukes >> >> Sitz der Gesellschaft: Kaiserslautern (HRB 2313) >> USt-Id.Nr.: DE 148646973, Steuernummer: 19/673/0060/3 >> --------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Deutsches Forschungszentrum für Künstliche Intelligenz (DFKI) GmbH Trippstadter Strasse 122, D-67663 Kaiserslautern Geschäftsführung: Prof. Dr. Dr. h.c. mult. Wolfgang Wahlster (Vorsitzender) Dr. Walter Olthoff Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Prof. Dr. h.c. Hans A. Aukes Sitz der Gesellschaft: Kaiserslautern (HRB 2313) USt-Id.Nr.: DE 148646973, Steuernummer: 19/673/0060/3 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: slusallek.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 441 bytes Desc: not available URL: <https://lists.fiware.org/private/fiware-miwi/attachments/20140406/84881993/attachment.vcf>
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